The Shriver Report

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笑嘻嘻
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Re: The Shriver Report

Post by 笑嘻嘻 » 2009-10-21 14:24

这理论inconvenient 压迫了不喜欢坐在阁楼里当公主喜欢出门烧杀掠夺强抢民男的女生发展个性的空间。
你怎么会知道我是这么想的???虽然我外面用公主款把自己包装得好好的。我觉得这跟有些小个子男生狂想去开18轮大卡车是一个道理。

我一共听过两次信基督教能让国家发达的说法, :mrgreen: 第一次是高中时在林语堂的《吾国吾民》里。第二次是很多年前在一个卖便当的中餐馆里一个台湾太太严厉地拉我去教会并尖锐指出是因为普遍信教所以台湾经济比大陆好。我基本没忍住不耐烦之后,她坚定地长久地直着脊背严厉地注视着每一个进门的人。
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Jun
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Re: The Shriver Report

Post by Jun » 2009-10-21 17:35

对于工薪收入男性高于女性,我也提出一个假设来瞧瞧:简单化地举例,工种AB两个,对工人的智力水平要求相同,但是工种A只接受男工人,工种B男女工人皆可,哪个行业的平均收入比较低?

当然是工种B,supply and demand 而已。连我这种没学过经济学的人都知道这个规律。

在美国这个“世界先进水平”的国家,男女同酬,即同样工作应该有同样报酬,联邦法律是哪一年通过立法保护的?1963 年,我这还是看了 Mad Men 才知道的。(http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/qanda.html)在此之前与之后的年代里,都有很多很多的行业是“女人与狗禁止入内”,可以入内的都是极少数的例外。1964 年通过 "Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (Title VII), which prohibits employment discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin",至今半个世纪都不到,市面上的各个行业,特别是利润丰厚的行业,有没有提供男女公平竞争的平台?对男女申请者的门是否开得一样大?

女工人收入比男工人低,不是因为女工人入的行业的价值比男工人入的行业价值低,而是反过来,某个行业薪水低,因为这个行业让更多女工人进来。

如果女工人比男工人平均收入低是因为女人的智商没有男人高,那么显然北欧、瑞士、缅甸、肯尼亚要么就是那里的男人特别笨,要么就是那里的女人特别聪明,因为在这些国家里,女工人的收入跟男工人的比例都比美国高。(http://unstats.un.org/unsd/demographic/ ... /tab5g.htm)

当然啦,人家 Larry Summers 是顶尖的经济学天才,我只上过一堂大学入门课 Economics 101,作业还大多是抄的。我的假设没法跟哈佛名学者相比。


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一篇直接驳斥“男孩子数学能力两头分布广,女孩子比较集中”和“高端数学能力中男生占多数”的说法,发表在 PNAS 今年六月一日:
Gender, culture, and mathematics performance 作者是两个 Janet。
Janet S. Hyde, Department of Psychology, University of Wisconsin, Madison, WI 53706
Janet E. Mertz, McArdle Laboratory for Cancer Research, University of Wisconsin School of Medicine and Public Health, Madison, WI 53706-1599

登于 http://www.pnas.org/content/106/22/8801.full

Full text 需要注册交钱,我就摘录几段。
Do Gender Differences Exist Among the Mathematically Talented?

The hypothesis that the variability of intellectual abilities is greater among males than females was originally proposed by Ellis in 1894 to explain a phenomenon that seemed obvious at the time: There were both an excess of males among the mentally defective and very few female geniuses (1). If this Greater Male Variability Hypothesis were valid, it could account for the existence of a preponderance of males at the highest levels of performance even when a mean gender difference does not exist, as shown schematically in Fig. 1. This is the hypothesis to which Lawrence Summers was referring[/b] when he stated at the National Bureau of Economic Research Conference held on January 14, 2005, “There are issues of intrinsic aptitude, and particularly of the variability of aptitude, and that those considerations are reinforced by what are in fact lesser factors involving socialization and continuing discrimination. It's talking about people who are 3 ½, 4 standard deviations above the mean in the one-in-5,000, one-in-10,000 class. Even small differences in the standard deviation will translate into very large differences in the available pool substantially out.”

....Theoretical models are, of course, just that. Actual distributions rarely conform exactly to normal ones. Thus, gender ratios in the upper tails of actual distributions were calculated using data from the Minnesota state assessments (13). Results were analyzed separately by ethnicity to ensure that the findings were not limited to the predominantly White samples that have been the mainstay of U.S. research. For students scoring above the 95th percentile, the M:F ratio was 1.45 for Whites, close to theoretical prediction. At the 99th percentile, the M:F ratio was 2.06, again close to theoretical prediction. However, the M:F ratio was only 0.91 for Asian-Americans, that is, more girls than boys scored above the 99th percentile. Analysis of data from 15-year-old students participating in the 2003 Program for International Student Assessment (PISA) likewise indicated that as many, if not more girls than boys scored above the 99th percentile in Iceland, Thailand, and the United Kingdom (18). The M:F ratios above the 95th percentile on this examination also fell between 0.9 and 1.1 for these above-named countries plus Indonesia, that is, were not significantly different from equal variances (19). These findings challenge the Greater Male Variability Hypothesis, which, if valid, should hold for all representative populations, regardless of ethnicity or nationality.

Two recent studies directly address the question of whether greater male variability in mathematics is a ubiquitous phenomenon. Machin and Pekkarinen (19) reported that the M:F VR in mathematics was significantly >1.00 at the P < 0.05 level among 15-year-old students in 34 of 40 countries participating in the 2003 PISA and among 13-year-old students in 33 of 50 countries participating in the 2003 Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study (TIMSS). However, these data also indicated that the math VR was significantly less than or insignificantly different from 1.00 for some of the countries that participated in these assessments (e.g., Table 2), a finding inconsistent with the Greater Male Variability Hypothesis.
Current research provides abundant evidence for the impact of sociocultural and other environmental factors on the development and nurturing of mathematical skills and talent and the size, if any, of math gender gaps. The evidence comes from both cross-ethnic and cross-national studies and the above-cited changes observed within countries over time in the general, SMPY, and IMO-level populations.

Several researchers have investigated cross-national patterns of gender differences in math performance, studies that also provide clues as to the specific cultural factors that most affect outcomes. Baker and Jones (29) found that the magnitude of the mean gender difference in mathematics performance on the Second International Mathematics Study (SIMS) significantly correlated, across nations, with measures of gender inequality. For example, the size of the math gender gap correlated −0.55 with the percentage of women in the workforce in those nations. Likewise, Guiso and colleagues (18), using 2003 PISA data testing 15-year-olds from 40 countries, found that gender inequality as measured by the World Economic Forum's Gender Gap Index (GGI) (30) significantly correlated with the magnitude of the mean math gender gap. The GGI provides a measure of the gap between men and women in economic participation and opportunity, educational attainment, political empowerment, and health and survival; the closer it is to 1.00, the smaller the gender gap on these measures. In other words, Guiso et al. (18) concluded that the math gender gap varies across nations; nations with greater gender equality typically have a smaller math gender gap.

Regarding change over time, the likeliest explanation for the dramatic improvement in math performance by U.S. females lies in 2 recent cultural trends: (i) girls in general taking more mathematics and science courses during high school due, in part, to changes in requirements for graduation and admission to colleges, and (ii) the opening up to females shortly before or after enactment of Title IX in 1972 of STEM-intensive specialty high schools, colleges, and graduate schools along with career opportunities in STEM fields. These 2 trends are intimately connected.

The increase in women pursuing careers in STEM has been quite dramatic in some STEM fields. For example, only 14% of the U.S. doctoral degrees in the biological sciences went to women in 1970, whereas this figure had risen to 49% by 2006 (31). Entry into other STEM areas has been slower, yet substantial. For example, 5.5% of U.S. doctoral degrees in the physical sciences were awarded to women in 1970, compared with 30% in 2006; the percentages in mathematics and statistics were 8% in 1970 and 32% in 2006 (26, 32). Clearly, numerous women are willing and able to learn the mathematics needed for advanced degrees in these areas when provided with an appropriately nurturing sociocultural environment along with educational and career opportunities.
STEM = science, technology, engineering, mathematics.

另一篇研究也很有意思:

National differences in gender–science stereotypes predict national sex differences in science and math achievement
http://www.pnas.org/content/106/26/10593.abstract
About 70% of more than half a million Implicit Association Tests completed by citizens of 34 countries revealed expected implicit stereotypes associating science with males more than with females. We discovered that nation-level implicit stereotypes predicted nation-level sex differences in 8th-grade science and mathematics achievement. Self-reported stereotypes did not provide additional predictive validity of the achievement gap. We suggest that implicit stereotypes and sex differences in science participation and performance are mutually reinforcing, contributing to the persistent gender gap in science engagement.
World Economic Forum 收集数据计算出来的性别差距社会综合指数 (gender gap index),根据2007 年数据,猜猜美国排第几?31,在古巴,哥斯达黎加,白俄罗斯,斯里兰卡这些国家之后。难怪女不如男是自然现象的理论在美国大有市场。

http://www.weforum.org/pdf/gendergap/rankings2007.pdf

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下次我还要提读书无用论,读书太多,脑子都读坏了。Larry Summers 也许在算经济模型上是天才,但是在常识上,哼哼。
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Knowing
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Re: The Shriver Report

Post by Knowing » 2009-10-21 18:14

larry summers 真没说女人比男人笨。首先他讨论的是顶尖学术界人才啥的,对整个劳动力市场完全不apply. 当然我觉得他把顶尖学术界当一个数据组来看完全不靠谱。至少也得把各专业分开啊,各专业使的都是不一样的能力。其次学术界里光靠IQ不成。只有该天才儿童自己觉得自己是完全靠IQ,才会以为别人也是纯粹靠IQ。我读了他的发言全文,觉得如果不是个校长说的,并不offensive。因为他最多是说个人看法倾向于某个假设,并没说有什么证实。科学理论一毛钱一打,证明以前都不值钱。该天才儿童搞了多年政治,当时在小克政府的财政部里也吃过随便乱讲话(写纸条)的亏,为啥还这么大嘴,就。。。。不过现在他规矩了。。。在帅哥政府里还没捅过什么篓子。

我觉得吧,反正只要男女还没完全平等,总有人要说"根据(现有)数据"blah blah 的话,挨个驳斥,想想实在是没什么意思。
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Jun
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Re: The Shriver Report

Post by Jun » 2009-10-21 18:27

Knowing wrote:larry summers 真没说女人比男人笨。首先他讨论的是顶尖学术界人才啥的,
我觉得吧,反正只要男女还没完全平等,总有人要说"根据(现有)数据"blah blah 的话,挨个驳斥,想想实在是没什么意思。
根据我引用的那个学术文章,他那个理论(男生分布广,女生集中)是19世纪不知道谁扔出来的理论,已经被证伪了。

前阵子我在哪儿看见的,不记得了,关于男性在哪个天赋上比女性优秀,支吾半天,说是研究数据表明基本上所有的天然能力都被女性追上了,只有读地图->开车认路方面,两性还有明显差距。另一个人笑死了,说太可怜了,上大学和毕业率啦,人际关系啦,这么多重要而实用的能力都被女生给占了优势,开车认路这一条就送给你吧。
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Knowing
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Re: The Shriver Report

Post by Knowing » 2009-10-21 18:33

那他用了错数据错理论呗。他后来也没反复重申和辩护这个发言啊。

我不觉得开车认路男性比女性强。我不爱开车也不爱看地图,但是到要用的时候完全没问题。没觉得比任何一个跟我一起开车认路的男性差了。

我不是经常说,历史大轮总是进步的,但是它进步的不匀乎。现在看了点美国历史,更加深刻的觉得,每个进步快的十年,后面经常要跟上一个backlash 退步一阵儿。帅哥说过:马丁路德金说道德的曲线总是向正义的方向弯的, 但是这曲线不会自己弯过去,得靠我们每个人都把手放上去,望正义的方向推。 我得说,这弧线上面的手多了去了,不是都跟我往一个方向努力。所以我只能略尽人事的努力推推,希望还是跟我一个方向的人多。。。爱谁谁吧。。。
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Jun
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Re: The Shriver Report

Post by Jun » 2009-10-21 18:43

说句实话,什么优势劣势,都是特定环境下的特定表象。现在是环境条件如此,引导社会发展方向。如果明天核弹爆炸,大家来个核冬天,变成象 Cormac McCarthy 的小说那种捕猎人吃人的生存环境,女人就立刻掉回劣势了。反正要生存谁也少不了谁,特别是在生育年龄的妇女。
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Knowing
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Re: The Shriver Report

Post by Knowing » 2009-10-21 18:49

TMD,真弄成核冬天了,我也不要使劲生存了,有意思没意思啊。天天吃喝玩乐的过日子我还觉得不太满足呢
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幻儿
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Re: The Shriver Report

Post by 幻儿 » 2009-10-22 9:51

我不能够接受的是很多人看到Summers的假设或者或者其他男女差异问题的时候,就会下意识的觉得这些理论的背后是女不如男,头脑中是六七十年代的女权运动时期的的思路:男女是敌人至少是对立的,潜意识里还认为男性的特点是更优势的,女性应该像男性那样,所以要否认男女之间的天然差异,而把女性今天的社会分工和地位完全归根于历史上的歧视,社会家庭的教育,男权社会对女性的压迫。可是我直觉上不认为这是全部的解释。比如说把若干婴儿(在他们被社会家庭污染之前)分成男女两个房间,给女孩玩具卡车枪之类,给男孩洋娃娃之类的。我觉得很可能女孩还是会把卡车分成爸爸车妈妈车玩过家家,男生会拿着洋娃娃当武器冲来冲去打闹。
我认为社会的压迫并不是赋予女性她们的自身特点或者给女性特定的社会分工(比如承担家庭劳动),而是让女性认为她们的特点是低等的她们的劳动是低级的。

我觉得男女的差异是互补的,不是对立的,不存在哪一个更优或更劣,女性亦不必想要事事“超过”男性。如果有人说男生数学好,马上就有人来证明不是的,女生已经赶上甚至要超过男生了,大家就松一口气,觉得这个证明得太对了。可是如果说女生整体上交流能力强艺术感觉好,并没有人想反驳 -- 是否反驳的话就容易政治不正确?

Jun
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Re: The Shriver Report

Post by Jun » 2009-10-22 9:59

可是如果说女生整体上交流能力强艺术感觉好,并没有人想反驳 -- 是否反驳的话就容易政治不正确?
People don't care if women are "better" than men on certain things. The reason is simple --- Even if women beat men in everything, but they still can't get the corner office. So who cares?

女生整体上交流能力强 <-- This theory is based on recent developmental psychology research in infants and children. There are at least some credible data to support it.

I have no problem agreeing that men have advantages in war and battles, in hunting and fighting. These are probably biologically true and real. And that is not at all intended to bash men or promote "political correctness". These are very important for survival and competitiveness for the species.

I'm weary of immediately assuming anything that is consistent with "political correctness" is more likely to be wrong. The opposite of political correctness is not truth, but the status-quo of a white-male-dominated society with conventional wisdom that serves their position of dominance. Some of the "political correct" reality is now inconvenient truth for the dominant white males.
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Re: The Shriver Report

Post by tiffany » 2009-10-22 10:07

我认为社会的压迫并不是赋予女性她们的自身特点或者给女性特定的社会分工(比如承担家庭劳动),而是让女性认为她们的特点是低等的她们的劳动是低级的。
我认为社会的压迫是不承认女性的劳动有价值或者价值不如做同样劳动的男性。

我还认为面前站着一个人是男/女,除了确认他/她应该进男/女洗手间之外,似乎不应该能得出该人算术比较好/不好,更适合某工作这个结论。

我最后认为,虽然30年代是个天真而野蛮的好时代,让我回去是万万不能的,为哈呢?那个年代男女界限太明显了,出门不涂口红好比没穿全衣服,更不要想短裤着满街跑过夏天了。
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Knowing
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Re: The Shriver Report

Post by Knowing » 2009-10-22 10:10

幻儿 wrote:我不能够接受的是很多人看到Summers的假设或者或者其他男女差异问题的时候,就会下意识的觉得这些理论的背后是女不如男,头脑中是六七十年代的女权运动时期的的思路:男女是敌人至少是对立的,潜意识里还认为男性的特点是更优势的,女性应该像男性那样,所以要否认男女之间的天然差异,而把女性今天的社会分工和地位完全归根于历史上的歧视,社会家庭的教育,男权社会对女性的压迫。可是我直觉上不认为这是全部的解释。比如说把若干婴儿(在他们被社会家庭污染之前)分成男女两个房间,给女孩玩具卡车枪之类,给男孩洋娃娃之类的。我觉得很可能女孩还是会把卡车分成爸爸车妈妈车玩过家家,男生会拿着洋娃娃当武器冲来冲去打闹。
我认为社会的压迫并不是赋予女性她们的自身特点或者给女性特定的社会分工(比如承担家庭劳动),而是让女性认为她们的特点是低等的她们的劳动是低级的。

我觉得男女的差异是互补的,不是对立的,不存在哪一个更优或更劣,女性亦不必想要事事“超过”男性。如果有人说男生数学好,马上就有人来证明不是的,女生已经赶上甚至要超过男生了,大家就松一口气,觉得这个证明得太对了。可是如果说女生整体上交流能力强艺术感觉好,并没有人想反驳 -- 是否反驳的话就容易政治不正确?
可以坦率的说,我认为你的直觉是错的。因为我的直觉完全不同。我是不是对的呢?不一定。

个体知觉非常受本身的局限。做为一个在很多方面跟传统的女性特点差十万八千里的女生,我自然的觉得传统的女性特点定义很不靠谱。比如我尤其认为数学好不是男女差异,因为我从小数学比绝大部分男生好,而且认识很多数学比男生好的女生。我的语言能力在女生里也算差的。当这些'反常规'直觉找到统计数据支持的时候,我当然更容易相信这些数据, 喜欢拿这些数据来用. 因为下意识我要证明我仍然典型的女性。你的思维过程也类似。

另外引用豪情说的
豪情 wrote:还有, 统计不能光看平均, 也要看方差. 男女之间平均的差距, 比男男之间, 女女之间的差距小很多. 我最恨故作惊人之语的报道, 拿一个孤立的统计数字就无限延伸服务于自己的需要. 一点科学态度也没有.
如果你学过统计,拿男女做X, 任何数据做Y,找correlation ,这个相关系数里有expected values μX and μY ,还有standard deviations σX and σY 。光拿个平均数没任何意义。方差一大,相关系数就下去了。
我认为社会的压迫并不是赋予女性她们的自身特点或者给女性特定的社会分工(比如承担家庭劳动),
这当然是压迫我这种不爱做家务劳动的女性!就象男人应该跟女人结婚的概念是压迫了弯人。
Last edited by Knowing on 2009-10-22 10:13, edited 1 time in total.
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幻儿
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Re: The Shriver Report

Post by 幻儿 » 2009-10-22 10:11

Knowing wrote:该天才儿童搞了多年政治,当时在小克政府的财政部里也吃过随便乱讲话(写纸条)的亏,为啥还这么大嘴,就。。。。不过现在他规矩了。。。在帅哥政府里还没捅过什么篓子。
有个熟人是他们那个圈子的,说Summers学术上确实过硬,但是太不会做人,人缘不怎么好。
笑嘻嘻 wrote:我一共听过两次信基督教能让国家发达的说法, :mrgreen:
我看过一些基督新教和天主教,普通法和大陆法对于经济发展的作用。研究人员想要弄明白的是这个现象:为什么英国和英殖民地(美加澳印南非香港等),比欧洲大陆和他们那些殖民地(比如亚非拉很多国家)的经济和法制状况要好一些?这些文章的结论是如果有一个崭新的国家,没有历史的牵绊,可以任意选择宗教和法律体系,那么最好选新教和普通法。迪拜看来是接受了这个结论,他们继承的是欧洲大陆法系,可是特意挖出一个缺口,商业上用英美的普通法。
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Re: The Shriver Report

Post by 幻儿 » 2009-10-22 10:16

tiffany wrote:我还认为面前站着一个人是男/女,除了确认他/她应该进男/女洗手间之外,似乎不应该能得出该人算术比较好/不好,更适合某工作这个结论。
这个是当然的吧。没有人会说就因为北欧人平均身高比日本人高,档案里一个北欧人/日本人,就选北欧人去当模特。
我说的都是整体而言,每个个体当然要分别对待。

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Re: The Shriver Report

Post by tiffany » 2009-10-22 10:17

英国曾经号称日不落帝国,我相信非洲很多国家曾经英属,这些英属非洲国家跟其他欧洲国家前殖民地相比起来经济政治状况如何?

欧洲大陆法跟英美法差别有多大?基督教下面那么多分支,有人做过系统研究研究这些分支跟经济政治状况的关系么?

阿大曾经批评我对人文科学太不看重,来,给我点儿重视人文科学的原因。
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Re: The Shriver Report

Post by dropby » 2009-10-22 10:19

幻儿 wrote:我不能够接受的是很多人看到Summers的假设或者或者其他男女差异问题的时候,就会下意识的觉得这些理论的背后是女不如男,
我觉得这完全取决于具体的假设和问题。神经有毛病的人才会认为女性可以和男性跑得一样快,力气一样大。 可是如果假设是说女性的数学能力不如男性,那我当然会要求拿出确实的科学证据来,而且如果不能得到这种政局的话就很有理由认为这种假设背后是对女性的歧视。
幻儿 wrote:比如说把若干婴儿(在他们被社会家庭污染之前)分成男女两个房间,给女孩玩具卡车枪之类,给男孩洋娃娃之类的。我觉得很可能女孩还是会把卡车分成爸爸车妈妈车玩过家家,男生会拿着洋娃娃当武器冲来冲去打闹。
作为一个母亲,我完全不这么觉得. 我女儿对任何洋娃娃绒毛动物都没有任何兴趣, 最喜欢玩卡车汽车火车. 小孩子会过家家或者使用(假想的)武器的年纪, 已经刻上很深的社会烙印了, 否则被社会家庭污染之前的孩子只有吃饭睡觉的本能, 不可能有过家家或者使用(假想的)武器的概念. again, 这只是我的感觉, 和你的感觉一样不值钱. 还是得有证据. 证据在哪儿?
幻儿 wrote:可是如果说女生整体上交流能力强艺术感觉好,并没有人想反驳 -- 是否反驳的话就容易政治不正确?
反驳不是政治上不正确,而是没有事实依据。根据JUN,有研究表明这是事实。根据我作为妈妈和其他妈妈交流的经验来看,大家都同意普遍来说小女孩比小男孩说话早。既然没有人会觉得男的比女的跑得快和政治不正确有啥关系,为什么说女的比男的某方面强或者弱就非得扯到政治上去。政治的归政治,科学的归科学。

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Re: The Shriver Report

Post by tiffany » 2009-10-22 10:21

幻儿 wrote:
tiffany wrote:我还认为面前站着一个人是男/女,除了确认他/她应该进男/女洗手间之外,似乎不应该能得出该人算术比较好/不好,更适合某工作这个结论。
这个是当然的吧。没有人会说就因为北欧人平均身高比日本人高,档案里一个北欧人/日本人,就选北欧人去当模特。
我说的都是整体而言,每个个体当然要分别对待。
既然如此,那我们在讨论什么?

且每个个体要分别对待的话,你说的整体而言岂不是抹杀了个体差异而把个体给笼统到整体里而言去了?也不要怪本地大部分幻想着出去强抢民男的女性不理解。
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Re: The Shriver Report

Post by 幻儿 » 2009-10-22 10:26

是不是这样:假设一条线,左边是极端传统的看法,右边是极端的男女毫无差异(所有工作都可以对半,包括当消防员军人之类)。这里绝大多数同学觉得目前社会还是偏于传统那边,所以强调另外的一面;我觉得美国社会对男女差异问题太敏感,偏于右边,所以想要强调左边的?

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Re: The Shriver Report

Post by tiffany » 2009-10-22 10:29

是这样,here be my question: what exactly is your point?
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Re: The Shriver Report

Post by Knowing » 2009-10-22 10:30

媒体和学术界不是美国社会.
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Re: The Shriver Report

Post by Jun » 2009-10-22 10:35

My opinion is very simple: Theories that have been proven to be wrong by facts and data should be discarded.

Be it "Girls are not as good at math as boys" or "Vaccines cause autism", when it's not true, it's not true.
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Re: The Shriver Report

Post by dropby » 2009-10-22 10:38

Jun wrote:My opinion is very simple: Theories that have been proven to be wrong by facts and data should be thrown aside.

Be it "Girls are not as good at math as boys" or "Vaccines cause autism", when it's not true, it's not true.
Exactly.

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Re: The Shriver Report

Post by 幻儿 » 2009-10-22 10:39

tiffany wrote:是这样,here be my question: what exactly is your point?
男女社会分工的差异和由此带来的其他差异不全是歧视造成的;女性不必非得像男人一样才是进步;男女不是敌人;女性不必想事事超过男性。
你可以看出这几句话全带否定词,因为我觉得我感到来自那些方面的压力而想抗拒。 :-D

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Re: The Shriver Report

Post by Knowing » 2009-10-22 10:44

幻儿 wrote:男女社会分工的差异和由此带来的其他差异不全是歧视造成的;女性不必非得像男人一样才是进步;男女不是敌人;女性不必想事事超过男性。
我建议你从女性主义的最基本概念做起,你首先是一个人,其次才是一个女人。如果你要跟别人不一样,我支持你。但是别把自己首先当作一个'女人'来跟'男人'不一样。你可以跟其他'女人'也不一样。你不想要事事拔尖超过其他人,就要有勇气说:我不追求这些东西。不要躲到'女性'身份后面。
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Re: The Shriver Report

Post by Jun » 2009-10-22 10:45

女性不必非得像男人一样才是进步;男女不是敌人;女性不必想事事超过男性
I agree with these points.

I believe pink girls and stay-at-home moms should have the same rights and allocation of social resources as working men and women. But that is entirely in the realm of social policies and law, not facts or truth or science.

I must point out, however, that in order to win equality for stay-at-home moms and girlie girls, the way to go is NOT to support and propagate false claims and theories that women are on average worse than men in (math, engineer, blah, blah, blah). The way to equality is NOT paved by agreeing with male-dominated theories that are simply not true.

The countries in the world that allocate more financial and social resources to support women to stay home and raise children are precisely the countries that have more gender equality for ALL WOMEN, including working women. First, they won gender equality. Then, women get more support to stay at home and still be respected and rewarded. These countries happen to fit the political correct mold MORE than US. In contrast, countries that continue with the tradition of male dominance and gender inequality, where "politically INcorrect" social values are more common, are WORSE for women who have and raise children.
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Re: The Shriver Report

Post by 幻儿 » 2009-10-22 10:47

Knowing wrote:我建议你从女性主义的最基本概念做起,你首先是一个人,其次才是一个女人。别把自己首先当作一个'女人'来跟'男人'不一样。你跟其他'女人'也很不一样。
这点我很明白。 :mrgreen:

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Re: The Shriver Report

Post by tiffany » 2009-10-22 10:51

幻儿 wrote:
tiffany wrote:是这样,here be my question: what exactly is your point?
男女社会分工的差异和由此带来的其他差异不全是歧视造成的;女性不必非得像男人一样才是进步;男女不是敌人;女性不必想事事超过男性。
你可以看出这几句话全带否定词,因为我觉得我感到来自那些方面的压力而想抗拒。 :-D
作为本地一个幻想出门强抢民男的龙女士的代表,我没有觉得女人象男人一样才是进步;我也不认为男女是敌人;我也没有事事想要超过男性---事实上,大部分人想的应该是把该做的事情做好,事情做的好不好的标准是没有性别因素在里面的。

事实上在这个论点提出来之前,没有人把男女放在竞争敌对的位置上,为什么你会把自己摆在这个位置上呢?
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Re: The Shriver Report

Post by sogno » 2009-10-22 10:53

我来支持下幻儿,敲字太累还是用符号表示吧。 :applaudit01: :applaudit02:
"There is neither happiness nor misery in the world; there is only the comparison of one state to another, nothing more. He who has felt the deepest grief is best able to experience supreme happiness."

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Re: The Shriver Report

Post by 幻儿 » 2009-10-22 11:03

tiffany wrote:事实上在这个论点提出来之前,没有人把男女放在竞争敌对的位置上,为什么你会把自己摆在这个位置上呢?
我没有提出来这个,我说的是男女间互补式差异。但是后面有人提出数学男生好还是女生好之类的,这才放到竞争位置上。
tiffany wrote:既然如此,那我们在讨论什么?
且每个个体要分别对待的话,你说的整体而言岂不是抹杀了个体差异而把个体给笼统到整体里而言去了?也不要怪本地大部分幻想着出去强抢民男的女性不理解。
研究整体的特点,还是有一点用处的。比如要写书卖书,要讨好大部分读者:加点言情小说套路容易讨好女生;加点与邪恶势力斗争容易讨好男生。还有那些讨论男女关系的书,比如类似火星金星那种,就是建立在generalization和stereotypes的基础上,但是从它的销量和无数衍生书籍就可以看出,这些generalization对每个个体的实际生活是有一定帮助的,而且群众的需求还挺大。

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Re: The Shriver Report

Post by Knowing » 2009-10-22 11:09

一部分读者和大部分读者有很大区别. 畅销书能不能帮助人的生活也没有定论。

绝大多数的人是不读书的。我记得有人跟我说过,全美的销售量里,精装本的最大读者群是中年犹太妇女,集中在tristate。
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Re: The Shriver Report

Post by Jun » 2009-10-22 11:12

加点言情小说套路容易讨好女生;加点与邪恶势力斗争容易讨好男生。
Stereotype 的问题是,大笔一挥,把很多人(包括我)都剥夺了性别权。
这些generalization对每个个体的实际生活是有一定帮助的,而且群众的需求还挺大。
没看明白,群众需求跟正面效果&帮助有什么直接联系。流行的东西,错误和反动的多了去了,有害无益的东西也多了去了。真理不是 popularity contest.
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Re: The Shriver Report

Post by 幻儿 » 2009-10-22 11:17

关于玩具的:Why do boys and girls prefer different toys?
Throughout the world, boys and girls prefer to play with different types of toys. Boys typically like to play with cars and trucks, while girls typically choose to play with dolls. Why is this? A traditional sociological explanation is that boys and girls are socialized and encouraged to play with different types of toys by their parents, peers, and the “society.” Growing scientific evidence suggests, however, that boys’ and girls’ toy preferences may have a biological origin.

In 2002, Gerianne M. Alexander of Texas A&M University and Melissa Hines of City University in London stunned the scientific world by showing that vervet monkeys showed the same sex-typical toy preferences as humans. In an incredibly ingenious study, published in Evolution and Human Behavior, Alexander and Hines gave two stereotypically masculine toys (a ball and a police car), two stereotypically feminine toys (a soft doll and a cooking pot), and two neutral toys (a picture book and a stuffed dog) to 44 male and 44 female vervet monkeys. They then assessed the monkeys’ preference for each toy by measuring how much time they spent with each. Their data demonstrated that male vervet monkeys showed significantly greater interest in the masculine toys, and the female vervet monkeys showed significantly greater interest in the feminine toys. The two sexes did not differ in their preference for the neutral toys.

We do not yet know exactly why males of different primate species prefer wheeled toys and other vehicles, or why females of different primate species prefer plush toys and other dolls (except for their vague resemblance to babies, for which females are evolutionarily designed to care). However, it is becoming less and less likely that “gender socialization” is the reason why boys and girls prefer different toys, and more and more likely that there are some genetic, hormonal, and other biological reasons for the observed sex differences in toy preference.
另外谢谢Sogno.

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Re: The Shriver Report

Post by Knowing » 2009-10-22 11:24

拿成年猴子的结论推广到人类幼儿嘛?荷而蒙分泌不一样啊。
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Re: The Shriver Report

Post by Jun » 2009-10-22 11:25

I find this study stunning as well, because monkeys neither cook nor have police (or cars). :worthy:

It's obvious that neither human babies nor monkeys have the faintest idea what a police car or a cooking pot is for. So what does this experiment mean? That female monkeys are born to want to cook :worthy: ? And male monkeys are born to prefer driving NASCAR?

It is a stunning study, because it clearly shows that cooking and driving are not exclusively human endeavors!

Oh, BTW, dead salmon can SIGNIFICANTLY interpret pictures of human faces as well, a study of brain scan has shown.
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Re: The Shriver Report

Post by dropby » 2009-10-22 11:33

:mrgreen:

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Re: The Shriver Report

Post by Jun » 2009-10-22 11:45

Does the male brain and female brain grow differently? Yes, definitely. I can cite you neurological research published in Scientific American and other reputable scientific publications.

Do the neurological differences translate into an uncontrollable instinct and desire to cook and be rescued in one brain versus driving a police car and ... OK how is a ball a "masculine" toy? :roll: ... No. There is no proof for that.
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Re: The Shriver Report

Post by 幻儿 » 2009-10-22 12:07

http://blogs.chron.com/sciguy/archives/ ... rucks.html
The comments below are more interesting than the article, I think.
I'm not citing this to say this experiment proved anything (there are obvious problems). I just find it fascinating how people (who commented on the article) react so differently. Some say: of course, why news? Why even studies? Some say: horrible study, completely meaningless. :-D

And color may not be a big deal after all -- I remember reading somewhere that pink (as a watered-down version of red, which is fierce and represents power) was the boy color, and blue the girl color. It switched after WWII. But why and how, I don't remember.

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Re: The Shriver Report

Post by tiffany » 2009-10-22 12:15

幻儿 wrote:关于玩具的:Why do boys and girls prefer different toys?
Throughout the world, boys and girls prefer to play with different types of toys. Boys typically like to play with cars and trucks, while girls typically choose to play with dolls. Why is this? A traditional sociological explanation is that boys and girls are socialized and encouraged to play with different types of toys by their parents, peers, and the “society.” Growing scientific evidence suggests, however, that boys’ and girls’ toy preferences may have a biological origin.

In 2002, Gerianne M. Alexander of Texas A&M University and Melissa Hines of City University in London stunned the scientific world by showing that vervet monkeys showed the same sex-typical toy preferences as humans. In an incredibly ingenious study, published in Evolution and Human Behavior, Alexander and Hines gave two stereotypically masculine toys (a ball and a police car), two stereotypically feminine toys (a soft doll and a cooking pot), and two neutral toys (a picture book and a stuffed dog) to 44 male and 44 female vervet monkeys. They then assessed the monkeys’ preference for each toy by measuring how much time they spent with each. Their data demonstrated that male vervet monkeys showed significantly greater interest in the masculine toys, and the female vervet monkeys showed significantly greater interest in the feminine toys. The two sexes did not differ in their preference for the neutral toys.

We do not yet know exactly why males of different primate species prefer wheeled toys and other vehicles, or why females of different primate species prefer plush toys and other dolls (except for their vague resemblance to babies, for which females are evolutionarily designed to care). However, it is becoming less and less likely that “gender socialization” is the reason why boys and girls prefer different toys, and more and more likely that there are some genetic, hormonal, and other biological reasons for the observed sex differences in toy preference.
其实还是应该跑回去去看原始文献的,这篇文章试图回答的是nature vs nurture的问题,这是个科学问题,不过从猴子怎么能过渡到人,这个就难说了---这个问题先放在这里,我对这个研究的最大不满就是她一个很明显的分析没有做:
Subjects were 44 male (mean age 39.2±31.1 months) and 44 female (mean age 50.4±46.5 months) vervet monkeys
母猴子平均年龄比公猴子大11.2个月!那我就需要知道年龄阶段对这个倾向有没有影响了。遗憾的是,她没有做这个分析。她这个实验的做法是把某一个玩具放笼子里给一群猴子玩五分钟,然后算contact时间(没看明白怎么算的),这样的实验做法我有很多意见。当然她是做心理学的,我不能要求太高。 :mrgreen:
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Re: The Shriver Report

Post by tiffany » 2009-10-22 12:23

幻儿 wrote:
tiffany wrote:事实上在这个论点提出来之前,没有人把男女放在竞争敌对的位置上,为什么你会把自己摆在这个位置上呢?
我没有提出来这个,我说的是男女间互补式差异。但是后面有人提出数学男生好还是女生好之类的,这才放到竞争位置上。
单单互补式差异的话,估计没有水花溅起来;问题是你这个互补式差异把广大龙女士的不打算互补差异的选择给整体而言忽略掉了,所以我们说来说去没完没了。
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Re: The Shriver Report

Post by Jun » 2009-10-22 12:31

别逗了,你没看见两篇文章都是同一个人领导的研究,德州A&M大学的 Gerianne Alexander,都是一个腔调。拿粉红的娃娃和卡车对比,拿玩具警车和锅对比,这个 bias 也太明显了吧?她怎么不拿粉红色的VW bug 模型跟Mike Tyson布娃娃对比?你再怎么 nurture 猴子,他也不会做饭开警车的,他更不会把警车跟男性联系起来(车玩具就车玩具了,还警车,nice touch),因为他们的男性只会爬树和捉虫吃,以及跟女性做爱;也不会把锅跟女性连起来,因为他们的女性只会爬树和捉虫吃,以及给小猴子喂奶。These toys have gender meaning to Gerianne Alexander, but not to monkeys. 就这种研究,在 Evolution and Human Behaviors 上面发表,倒是对 Evolution Psychology 的科学程度做了一个很好的注解。
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Re: The Shriver Report

Post by Knowing » 2009-10-22 12:32

tiffany wrote: 当然她是做心理学的,我不能要求太高。 :mrgreen:
You are so mean!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
社会科学和自然科学,我客气的说,思维方式不太一样.

人都是有倾向性的。要是一个研究结果看上去不太合我的意,我当然第一反应是要挑它的毛病。但是这个报告也委实不太争气,的确非常垃圾。要是一个研究很严格,我虽然不喜欢,凑近看半天也觉得无话可说,那才能说服我。但是这些报告放外面,大家爱看不看,光说服跟本来就相信的人有什么用...
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camellia
Posts: 1146
Joined: 2003-12-04 19:17

Re: The Shriver Report

Post by camellia » 2009-10-22 17:58

做为一个小时候上房揭瓦拳脚说话长大了自己做水电工修车修房子的女性,我最烦被说你不像女孩子/女人。除非你拿出有说服力的统计数据证明像我一样的女生是极少数,否则那种女生就该/喜欢如何如何的标签拿来乱贴我直接跟你急。还有谁说女性不认路?最好的几个女朋友都开车到处跑不会迷路,我连GPS都不用,倒是认识的50%左右男性是路盲。我觉的平等的概念就是每个人能按着自己最舒服的样子做人,不用因为自己的性别,年龄和人种而被划分,而勉强去做符合身份的事或被告知不能做什么。愿意玩娃娃的是女孩子也可以是男孩子,愿意玩模型拆东西的不一定就是男孩子,我小时候到手里的玩具总会被大卸八块也没妨碍做个正常女生。

Knowing
Posts: 34487
Joined: 2003-11-22 20:37

Re: The Shriver Report

Post by Knowing » 2009-10-23 8:07

有没有女孩子是喜欢幻想当塔里的小公主的呢?有,而且不少。我不想也不能否认这个群体。这个群体的存在不是‘不方便的事实’。

但是有这个群体存在,和这个群体define 女孩子的共同特性,是两回事。茶花是认路的女性,不否定有不认路女性的存在。

甚至要说这个群体是大部分,就不是‘不方便的事实’了。我根本不认为她们是大部分。你要说明这是事实,得先拿数据出来说明我。如果你马上说她们占大多数,甚至‘也许(大部分)女生就是喜欢’,我作为一个不是这样的人,觉得自己被边缘化,当然马上会被冒犯。这跟社会上政治有多正确没关系。这是我的个体反应。

某群体如果在一个集合里占大部分,也不能就用它define 整个集合。比如,直人肯定比弯人多,但是弯人争取平等人权,并不是要否认直人占多数,也不是要证明弯人比直人更优越,而是”社会不能假设人都是直的,从而完全否认弯人的存在“。争取到平等后,人的弯直是不受外界压力,才是个人选择。

所以同样的,即使我能够占上风,证明龙女士是女生里的多数,小公主wannabe 的女生是少数,不等于我要否认那些小公主wannabe 的女孩选择生活方式的权利。平等是给予人选择权,不是大家都变成一个模子里印出来的女强人。

有人要自强不息的往上爬,有人要追求身心的宁静,有人想养育快乐的下一代,都没什么错。更可能的是,在生活某一个阶段,一个人会想要不同东西,少女时代野心勃勃要出人头地挣大钱出风头周游世界,三十多有点名有点钱特别希望有灵魂伴侣,四十多生物钟响了渴望生育下一代,五六十岁孩子去了大学,空了下来,厌倦了沉闷的郊区主妇生活,向往享受男性毛茸茸的身体--没错,我说的就是是亦舒。如果社会给人更多选择自由,不用现成的模式来压迫谁,大家都可以过的容易点。
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dropby
Posts: 10921
Joined: 2003-11-24 12:23

Re: The Shriver Report

Post by dropby » 2009-10-23 10:20

我就是不认路的女性。可是就算你说大多数女性都不认路的确是事实对我来说一点安慰作用都没有。我还是认为我不认路是一件非常让我沮丧的事情。幸好有GPS,这真是个伟大的发明啊。

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