前阵子不是说男女之别么？于是我又开始胡思乱想，然后拿到这儿来胡说八道。话说老子在The New Yorker上看见倒霉的Anthony Lane评论电影Volver的话，真是气不打一处来。我有种强烈的怀疑，Lane不喜欢这部电影是因为看不惯这是一部明目张胆的女性影片，里面一家三代女人，坚强自立，互相扶持，一点不靠男人援手也活得好好的。听着Lane字里行间的就对此不忿，又不好发作－－爱慕杜华虽然是弯的可仍然是如假包换的老爷们儿，终究怪不得那些自鸣得意自以为解放了的傻女人的傻主意。又讨论到，如果象Children of Men或者James Tiptree, Jr.编的那样儿，明天真的男人不需要女人女人也不需要男人传宗接代了，世界会变成什么样，大家又能否照常活下去。我搜肠刮肚地回想各色chick flicks，guy movies，至少文艺作品，电影作品里男人和女人的题材，得到的结论把自己也吓一跳：似乎，嗯嗯，男人可以自己跟自己好好地玩下去，纯男人的故事大把大把的；而女人的故事却少不了男人，除了纯弯女的故事如Orlando，我一时还真想不起来有什么是全女班无男角的故事。
纯男人故事，从水浒三国西游记到西部片动作片黑帮片，女人只是点缀而已，在精神上感情上理想上都是可有可无的，男人跟男人，而且都是百分之百的大英雄形象哦，多么的热血沸腾多么铁汉柔情，仁义双全，爱恨情仇，男人和男人之间的深情才浪漫呢，看看Clint Eastwood的电影就知道了，不需要女人插进来。。。可是我见过的女人写的关于女人的小说电影，即使是全班女角，她们的故事都跟男人有千丝万缕的关系，当然也互相有关系，总之复杂得很一扯一大片。女人的人生似乎有无数坐标和结构，其中总有扯上男人的一部分，从来没有象男人的故事那样精神上能够自给自足。为什么涅？或许是因为女人长久处于社会弱势地位低下从属男人脱不掉依赖关系？但是我有个旧理论，非常政治不正确，说出来一定会被人扁：男人广泛地有弯的倾向，哪怕抵死不认或者被恐惧推到大脑最深处，但是这或多或少的天性在最阳刚的男人里也有。而女人或许弯的倾向。。。即使有，也是来自跟弯男全然不同的来源。。。
[闲聊]女人的故事，男人的故事
Re: [闲聊]女人的故事，男人的故事
我觉得是女人有生育的本能，所以需要男人的合作。男人么，反正不会生孩子，有没有女人都能自己玩儿。 
Re: [闲聊]女人的故事，男人的故事
这个，男人也有传播基因的本能，也需要女人合作吧。putaopi wrote:我觉得是女人有生育的本能，所以需要男人的合作。男人么，反正不会生孩子，有没有女人都能自己玩儿。
But even today, even movies that are written directed and played by women, men always have a prominent place in the story -- even things like "Fried Green Tomato," Steel Magnolia, Nine to Five, Notes on a Scandal, Lovely and Amazing, Friends with Money, etc. Men always have a meaningful place in women's lives -- emotionally and spiritually. Women in men's lives ... uh ... not so much.
My conclusion is, in a world where men and women do not need each other biologically, men would happily play within themselves and satisfy each other's emotional needs, but women would have a much harder time...
My conclusion is, in a world where men and women do not need each other biologically, men would happily play within themselves and satisfy each other's emotional needs, but women would have a much harder time...
Well, first of all, even today we are far from gender equality. Secondly, even in the more equal area, women do not dominate.even today
I would spare you the bad joke that most men have little emotional need, but seriously, biological need and socialogical need, physical need and emotional needs are often entwined so closely together, it is hard to tell where one stops and the other starts. Is the cat's need to be stoked physical or emotionall? Is our need to hug and kiss another human is physical or emotional? It is often 50-50. Lots of women might not live happily without men, but without othe women they can gossip with or show off to, it might be even worse.in a world where men and women do not need each other biologically, men would happily play within themselves and satisfy each other's emotional needs, but women would have a much harder time
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就是的。 就象拍mafia这么男性主题的电影，既能拍成象教父女人纯属配角那样，也可拍成Sopranos那样，Tony的老婆在那戏里有不可忽略的角色。我觉得电影和小说，作为艺术创作，本质上还是个人性非常强的东西。
I think a good way to gain some understand on this issue is to look at studies of social dynamics in women prison, and compare it to that of where men are locked up. Perhaps that is more helpful than yying aimlessly here.
What? What? Are we so scared of a little blasphemous talk? Can't I put forth a bit of wild speculation without logic or evidence? Is it so unimaginable to suggest that, if we take sex and procreation out of the equation, men might find it easier to live without women then women find it to live without men? I'm not promoting an actual male-dependent existence for women in any seriousness. But what good is a blabber mouth like me if I don't dare to push it a little deeper into silliness and offensive controversy? To be able to toy with all kinds of possibilities, however implausible, is to face our own fear and aversion.
(Actually I have my own theory about why women's stories always have men but men's stories sometimes do not have women--in a psychological sense, but that's beside the point.)
(Actually I have my own theory about why women's stories always have men but men's stories sometimes do not have women--in a psychological sense, but that's beside the point.)
等一等，等一等，Jun。你从一个现象：你看到的记得的文艺作品里要么是有关男女之间的故事的，要么是有关男男之间的故事的。然后你提出了一个问题：为什么会这样？你同时提出了一个假想：是不是因为女人的生活里不能没有男人，而男人的生活里可以没有女人。
上面的同学们反感你的假想，不是因为你提出了一个大胆的假设，而是从这个社会现象走到这个结论。
男女之间是有本质的生物区别，但是这种生物区别并不是一切社会现象的唯一答案。先说文艺作品里有没有主要是女女之间的故事的？我印象里是有的，亦舒的中晚期作品里就有不少（在最晚的天才少女故事之前的阶段）。我猜亦舒当时写的时候已经不在外面工作了。她那阶段的小说里，一个大企业从上到下全部人员“全女班”。男性的出现纯为了谈恋爱，主要特征是眼睛会笑，会跳舞，会接吻会调情。非常符号化。但是她这个时期的作品已经完全失去了她年轻时代作品里充斥的小小的街头哲学。换句话讲，她的这种作品没有任何生活基础。
前面你举的男男文艺作品的例子里，真正有关gay的并不多。多数是关于“外面的世界”的。传统女性的整个世界就是家庭内部。一个传统家庭是由男女共同组成的。除了，我想了半天，修道院。有专写修道院的作品吗？那非得是个女作家吧？只有在家庭之外，有大量女性从事各种职业，一个女性在“外面的世界”处理各种问题时才会正好碰到的全是女性。才可能产生爱情家庭以外的故事。才有目前的男男作品相同的社会基础和背景。我不认为文艺作品能够超越其所在的社会背景而存在。
上面的同学们反感你的假想，不是因为你提出了一个大胆的假设，而是从这个社会现象走到这个结论。
男女之间是有本质的生物区别，但是这种生物区别并不是一切社会现象的唯一答案。先说文艺作品里有没有主要是女女之间的故事的？我印象里是有的，亦舒的中晚期作品里就有不少（在最晚的天才少女故事之前的阶段）。我猜亦舒当时写的时候已经不在外面工作了。她那阶段的小说里，一个大企业从上到下全部人员“全女班”。男性的出现纯为了谈恋爱，主要特征是眼睛会笑，会跳舞，会接吻会调情。非常符号化。但是她这个时期的作品已经完全失去了她年轻时代作品里充斥的小小的街头哲学。换句话讲，她的这种作品没有任何生活基础。
前面你举的男男文艺作品的例子里，真正有关gay的并不多。多数是关于“外面的世界”的。传统女性的整个世界就是家庭内部。一个传统家庭是由男女共同组成的。除了，我想了半天，修道院。有专写修道院的作品吗？那非得是个女作家吧？只有在家庭之外，有大量女性从事各种职业，一个女性在“外面的世界”处理各种问题时才会正好碰到的全是女性。才可能产生爱情家庭以外的故事。才有目前的男男作品相同的社会基础和背景。我不认为文艺作品能够超越其所在的社会背景而存在。
云浆未饮结成冰
Oh I totally support people disagreeing with my 大胆的假设. In fact I don't even agree with this theory. Your explanation is very plausible.
It was a thought, a hypothesis, that I throw out to provoke some reaction. It might be a little crazy and a little nutty, but I have to admit I intended to (potentially) offend -- no offense. I usually am not a "shock jock," but ...
I don't want to constantly try to be always right.
It was a thought, a hypothesis, that I throw out to provoke some reaction. It might be a little crazy and a little nutty, but I have to admit I intended to (potentially) offend -- no offense. I usually am not a "shock jock," but ...
I don't want to constantly try to be always right.
自己先说“我是逗你们玩的”，别人也就没了argue的冲动。那种stimulating的讨论，还非得针尖对麦芒才有劲。At least I'm a danger to only myself while drinking is a danger to self and others.I 've seen more lives troubled by reading than by drinking
Don't feel sorry for me though. I was destroyed irreversibly by books since I was 4 years old.
I so disagree with this statement. Can you say fish has less 传播基因的本能 just because its strategy is to produce millions of eggs rather than raising a few children until they are 18?男人传播基因的本能似乎没有女人强
You mean Al Swearengen?
Milch is the writer. He's mighty good at manipulation -- manipulating the audience into loving Al despite his meanness. Milch, based on the interviews on the DVD, is definitely not an alpha man. But he knows how people instinctively love the image of a powerful man and uses that to his advantage.
I strongly disagree with this dichotomous view that there are only 2 kinds of men or people in the world: Alpha and spineless mashed potatoes. Can you sweep Walt Disney into the same category as John Sayles (who? you say.) or David Milch? Can you sweep Mao into the same group as Bill Clinton? Can you put Jeffrey Skilling, Tom DeLay, Dick Cheney into the same category as Barak Obama, Al Gore, and Jimmy Carter?
Being smart and strong and capable is not the same thing as being a domineering self-absorbed grandiose power-hungry asshole.
Milch is the writer. He's mighty good at manipulation -- manipulating the audience into loving Al despite his meanness.
Milch, based on the interviews on the DVD, is definitely not an alpha man. But he knows how people instinctively love the image of a powerful man and uses that to his advantage. I strongly disagree with this dichotomous view that there are only 2 kinds of men or people in the world: Alpha and spineless mashed potatoes. Can you sweep Walt Disney into the same category as John Sayles (who? you say.) or David Milch? Can you sweep Mao into the same group as Bill Clinton? Can you put Jeffrey Skilling, Tom DeLay, Dick Cheney into the same category as Barak Obama, Al Gore, and Jimmy Carter?
Being smart and strong and capable is not the same thing as being a domineering self-absorbed grandiose power-hungry asshole.