转俩最近的博: Why are you doing this?

[camellia]

我现在觉得大家讨论的不是一个问题。
Jun说的得是一种病态的减肥心理，是一种极端的例子，并不仅是减肥，而是自卑和自我否定心理下的任何过度修正行为。大家说的是都是健康的，认可自我定位的人。我们很多说要减肥的，实际上是在试着保持或者恢复曾经拥有的自我。
我相信肥胖基因的说法会让更多人心安理得的肥胖，而饮食习惯和运动程度的作用被故意忽略。Jun说的则是反向的极端，过度强调饮食习惯的作用而忽视身体的自然需要。
还有要说的是peer presure. Sex and City里那个从纽约跑去加州的胖子变瘦子给我印象很深，似乎是一个很好的例子解释大家的观点。

[CAVA]

同意茶花。

有正在苦恼，正在折磨自己的人，看见了我说的话，有所启发，就可以了。

你说得对，希望需要帮助的人看了有所启发。不过下次有类似的文章还是请发过来，有feedback不是更stimulating吗？

[tiffany]

关于obsessive dieting 的现象，如果一个人的baseline weight 就是100斤，其实不可能永久达到80斤的标准的，多数这么干的人，都不会达到“快乐”的境界，即使到了80斤也会时刻担心涨回去，而且大多数人绝对会涨回去的。不胖的人减肥，或者无明显缺陷的人做plastic surgery，并不是一件“无聊可笑”的现象，而是来自强烈的自我否定，自我厌恶，甚至自我仇恨的根源。

this is exactly my point. I agree that people change, but the core of a person doesn't change that fast or sometimes not at all. The obsessive dieting is just the expression of a far more deeper problem of a person, that this person has not made peace with him/herself and the world in general, that this person just cannot accept the way she/he is.

For people who are offering a helping hand, I think the first and foremost thing is to accept the said person the way he/she is, problems, baggages and all. The change has to come from within, the core of the person gets torn down and rebuilt during the process. When I say respect the problem, I am not saying do nothing about it, I am saying the trauma needs to be acknowledged. No matter how silly the problem is, the pain is serious and real to the affected person.

[Jun]

I agree with all of this:

For people who are offering a helping hand, I think the first and foremost thing is to accept the said person the way he/she is, problems, baggages and all. The change has to come from within, the core of the person gets torn down and rebuilt during the process. When I say respect the problem, I am not saying do nothing about it, I am saying the trauma needs to be acknowledged. No matter how silly the problem is, the pain is serious and real to the affected person.

To go a bit further, these problems, including obsessive dieting, are NOT SILLY, nor are they trivial. They are merely symptoms of deeper and more serious problems, eating them hollow from the inside. I try not to imply that I was passing judgment on them. My tone was probably impatient and rash and pushy, but not meant to be judgmental or condescending or disrespectful.

So I advocate for deeply wounded people to get help. The motivation for change has to come from within, sure, but changes so fundamental cannot be accomplished by the already disadvantaged, but rather require collaboration and help from professionals.

But, I would say that the body image and self-esteem problem affect many women, a lot more than we are willing to admit. Although some women are less affected because of stronger psychological background (most often because of good genes and good caretakers in early life), the damage on self-esteem can be pervasive as the social peer pressure increases, especially in a society that brainwashes women and other minorities that emphasizes conformance more than individuality.

[Jun]

因为长期在精神医学的文章里打滚，我对很多普通context里用词的意味已经迟钝了，例如"It's all in your head"，在普通 lay person的文字中，含有贬义，暗示＂你的毛病实际是不存在的，只是你想出来的＂，而我看上去就不一定会马上去PIA，也不怎么敏感，因为我已经习惯了 "in your head" 跟 "in your lungs" 或者 "in your abdomen" 没有区别，都是生理的现象，哪有根本区别呢？脑子里的东西也是看得见摸得着的，包括自卑，包括抑郁，不是电就是化学。所以有时候可能语气不恰当，如有误解，在此道歉。

[tiffany]

This is one of those incidence where inter-person communication would have avoided any misunderstanding.

[sinca]

首先我表态下儿啊，我同意jun关于减肥的态度，也同感身高160，体重100斤，觉得自己特肥，要再减上20斤的小姑娘，这个，有点儿过。
但是哈，这里的关键词是happy，要是人家小姑娘80斤了就高兴，她为什么要到80斤很重要么？

160的姑娘要是减到了80斤，还有胸部吗？要是没有胸部，再瘦也不好看。:P

[bootchange]

其实关于减肥这个问题，那个20%胖的看不见脚的对身体有害急需减肥大家都应该没有意见，而对于那个20%瘦骨嶙峋甚至厌食的急需刹车大家也没有意见。说来说去就是中间那60%可减可不减的大多数吧。

我觉得这里有两方面的问题，一是外部压力，现在大环境就是要瘦啊，这就像是要求男生个子高又有钱这样子，管他有理没理，反正潮流就是这样。另一方面是自己的内心的压力，同样的外部压力施与不同人的时候结果大不相同。好比很多博士在北美混的很不如意，但多数就是唧唧歪歪一下，只有少数会去XX高速上自杀。

对于外部压力，我们是有心杀敌无力回天。对于内部压力，我觉得迫切减肥的焦虑或许只是一个表象，而更本的原因可能是这个人比较偏执、脆弱、受过XXX打击不一而足。即使说通了减肥这个问题，也可能只是把这个葫芦按下去，却发现另一个瓢浮起来。当然能治标总比什么都不治要好。