天气一热，听到的坏消息特别多：有人要离婚了，甚至有人自杀了，昨天早上经过六部口，又遇“治安事件”，一位老兄站在三层楼那么高的路牌架子上，正跟警察谈判，哗，警察叔叔站在消防车用的液压升降架上，地上铺着充气垫子，交通警痛骂看热闹的司机：“快走快走！”而街边的照相器材店门口，有人举着大炮在照相，真热闹。
我估计这人没死。真的去自杀的人，都静悄悄地。穿戴整齐了，打一个车，找到片干净地方，想一整天，终于还是没想通，给家里人发个短信：我永远爱你。就这样。
某人去参加告别式，哭了一场，回来一直很颓丧。他跟他一起喝过一次酒，和另外很多人，我记得那个晚上，因为他回来得非常非常晚，整个人非常非常醉，非常非常臭，所以我曾非常生气。
后来我们家遇到件事，是喝酒中的一人跑前跑后，帮了很多忙，某人一直说：你看，就喝了那么一次酒，人家竟这么帮我。我说：好了好了，以后不管你了。
某人说昨天的告别式，也是这位爱张罗的人在跑前跑后。而其实自杀的人，生前也是喜欢跑前跑后的人，很开朗，谁也想不到他会自杀。
自然少不了猜测。猜测可能是因为什么，我不免就这“什么”而发些感慨。某人不耐烦，道：“谁也不知道是不是因为这个，你跟我说这些有什么用？！跟他说他也听不见了！我自己反正不会自杀！”
我说：“你看，我跟你说了，以后你遇到为同样的事不开心的人，你想起我这些话，劝他个一句半句，他要听进去了，你不也算救了条命吗？不也是咱们修的福吗？”
天气热，早上常很早醒了，再睡着就过了时间，只好日日打车上班，下班不着急，只坐地铁罢了。在地铁里周一张买张＜精品购物＞，周四买＜明星＞，周五买＜三联＞，这样的规律地平静的日子，特别让人有一种错觉，觉得自己会永远这样过下去，永远永远，然后在某一个早晨，接到上帝的电话，神秘地说：喂，你就是世界上唯一幸运的不必死的那个人，生生世世。
怕死怕得常常想起这件事会尖叫。某人问怎么了，咱又不好意思承认。真是贪生啊。然而我也理解，选择去死的人，他们并不仅是因为绝望，而更多是因为骄傲。他们决不会跑到天安门附近，在交通早高峰的时候，爬上路牌――小丑才那样，真寻死的人，都是象某人的这位同事一样，尽量地整齐，干净。
但是我不得不说，这样走了，还是不够干净，因为好好的人，也免不了人家在背后猜测，是因为这个吗？那个吗？最后变成，没有的事，也变成他的。
有什么不能解决的问题呢？死又能解决什么呢？真的爱一个女人，就要好好地陪她，要是她不爱你了，死也吓不住她，反倒成全了她。何必呢。
当然，我们某人说了，不见得是因为这个。那是因为什么呢？至少留下个字，说明一下，可以减少不必要的对逝者与生者的猜测及不敬。
我反对自杀。自杀是对父母犯下的重罪。自然，我知道，有些父母亦以虐待子女为乐，无论是精神上还是肉体上，则对这样的父母，应该与对一切伤害过你的人一样――过得好才是最大的报复，而不是，草草了结自己的生命，让他们觉得，生下你是一个错误，一种浪费。
[闲聊]旗帜鲜明地反对自杀
That's a interesting way of putting it.那绝对是一箭数雕的举动。
The problem is that those who are not "inclined" to commit suicide cannot understand why anyone would actually do it, but those who do commit suicide believe (at the time of committing suicide) it is the most logical and natural decision. It's not. There are few (although I would not say none) instances in life when suicide is the best option, but the people who do it are not able to see it this way. They really feel this is the best option at that given time. Can that be fixed? Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
icefire wrote:我在读研的时候，我们大学的班长过世了。他们家人来学校收拾衣物的时候，那悲伤象油纸里包裹的东西的油，不停地渗出来，渗出来。不到万不得已的地步的话，真是要慎重考虑自杀。那绝对是一箭数雕的举动。
Last edited by 唐唐的郁金香 on 2021-07-31 7:17, edited 1 time in total.
“I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "... But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.” ― J.R.R. Tolkien
jun 说的对，绝大部分自杀的人，看不到自己有其他更好的选择。About 1998 or so, a man committed a public suicide in Los Angeles. I remember it very well because it was on TV, live. He was standing on a highway pass (a street intersection overlooking the highway) with a shotgun in hand, threatening to kill himself. Everyone came --- the police, helicoptors, TV crew, reporters, and the crowd of course. Nobody thought he meant it, since he WAS being so public in broad daylight. Obviously he wanted to live and was waiting for someone to stop him in public. But then he blew his head off with the shotgun. I didn't see it but a coworker saw the brief second on TV when he lay there in his own blood and brains. Of course, this shot was cut from all the subsequent newscast and TV news from now on would not show such events live. (Although I'm sure in LA they still show police car chases and gunfights live.)他们决不会跑到天安门附近，在交通早高峰的时候，爬上路牌――小丑才那样，真寻死的人，都是象某人的这位同事一样，尽量地整齐，干净。
Suicide is not logical or reasonable, but then people are not either. If a person is able to reason, he would not be in such despair. And the reason to live is really not for other people, even one's parents. A person lives for himself, not for others, even if others' lives are affected by his decisions. A decision as grave as to be or not to be is not based on the threat of his parents' happiness or peace of mind.
人真的只是为自己活的？象抑郁症患者，要亲朋好友们放弃其实比坚持不懈的支持鼓励他去治疗要容易得多。一个这样的病人，就能把一个家庭往无底的深渊拉。如果人真的只是为自己活的，对病人家属和病人本身来说，岂不是所有的努力都是痛苦的，无意义的？也是对社会资源的浪费?还不如就让他们自生自灭？
要我说，多想想别人，心胸开阔些，眼里不要只有自己一个人的苦乐，得抑郁症的可能性会小很多。世上不如意事十之八九，何必和自己过不去。我母亲在医院照顾了我表妹有半个多月，告诉我，看到的抑郁病人个个衣着时鲜，家庭经济状况非常好，不禁感慨，当年三年自然灾害时期，个个饿的前胸贴后胸，每个人想的都是有些食物活下去，哪来那么多精力去忧郁！
要我说，多想想别人，心胸开阔些，眼里不要只有自己一个人的苦乐，得抑郁症的可能性会小很多。世上不如意事十之八九，何必和自己过不去。我母亲在医院照顾了我表妹有半个多月，告诉我，看到的抑郁病人个个衣着时鲜，家庭经济状况非常好，不禁感慨，当年三年自然灾害时期，个个饿的前胸贴后胸，每个人想的都是有些食物活下去，哪来那么多精力去忧郁！
That's not what I meant by "reason." If you have ever tried the pro/con list to decide on something in your life, then you know the decision is never based on which side is longer, but rather which factors are more important to you.自认有条理的人喜欢列list啦balance sheet，什么事情pro&con一番。如果当时情境con远远大于pro，而恰有一个过不去的坎儿（被女友抛弃不能算），那么reason一番也许就选择结束了呢？
If the situation is so that suicide is reasonably the best and/or only option for a particular person, then yes, suicide is the best and reasonable option.
In most circumstances in life, suicide is not the best option, but the person who commits suicide is UNABLE to reason and come to that conclusion or see the alternative. They are too impaired by their disease or deficient thinking or despair to see reason.
That's what I meant.
我现在确实是很糊涂。到底是生理上先出问题，比如说以前Jun好像说过，脑部一些部位化学物质不平衡,神经传递发生了变化，导致了忧郁症，还是由于自己性格，经历方面的原因，容易钻牛角尖，长期的精神不稳定导致生活习惯不正常，又进一步恶化导致最终生理上出现不靠药物不能逆转的问题？
我看到的，根据现象上来说大多是后者，一个高考考不上不下，家里安排了个工作也不满意，后来就慢慢的性情大变，不爱和人说话，情绪非常低沉，家人们想尽了方法，最后还是跳楼自杀了。还有一个，本来家庭非常美满，后来最心疼的女儿得了白血病死了，他整个人就崩溃了，后来调整不过来，离婚后自杀了两次，第二次没救过来。他们的家人，朋友不能说没有尽力，可是怎么也挽回不来，人整个都变样了。当然，我们那儿闭塞，不是地理上的闭塞，是思想观念上的闭塞，当时没人想到需要用药物来治疗. 我母亲就说，如果把他们送到医院去治疗，不一定会到那种地步。
所以我现在对clinical depression非常的糊涂。
我看到的，根据现象上来说大多是后者，一个高考考不上不下，家里安排了个工作也不满意，后来就慢慢的性情大变，不爱和人说话，情绪非常低沉，家人们想尽了方法，最后还是跳楼自杀了。还有一个，本来家庭非常美满，后来最心疼的女儿得了白血病死了，他整个人就崩溃了，后来调整不过来，离婚后自杀了两次，第二次没救过来。他们的家人，朋友不能说没有尽力，可是怎么也挽回不来，人整个都变样了。当然，我们那儿闭塞，不是地理上的闭塞，是思想观念上的闭塞，当时没人想到需要用药物来治疗. 我母亲就说，如果把他们送到医院去治疗，不一定会到那种地步。
所以我现在对clinical depression非常的糊涂。
这是很典型的老一辈的人的想法。clinical depression 真正被认知为一种疾病，是最近几十年的事情。她们这么想是挺自然的。你这么想就不应该了。现代科学对忧郁症的了解太少，但是归结于性格缺陷肯定是错的。换句话说，我们才开始知道我们不知道，连我们有多少不知道都不知道。water wrote: 要我说，多想想别人，心胸开阔些，眼里不要只有自己一个人的苦乐，得抑郁症的可能性会小很多。世上不如意事十之八九，何必和自己过不去。我母亲在医院照顾了我表妹有半个多月，告诉我，看到的抑郁病人个个衣着时鲜，家庭经济状况非常好，不禁感慨，当年三年自然灾害时期，个个饿的前胸贴后胸，每个人想的都是有些食物活下去，哪来那么多精力去忧郁！
自杀这事情完全得case by case 来分析。就像癌症是该积极治疗，保守治疗，还是尽力减轻痛苦，甚至安乐死，完全得看个例来决定。我要说的跟jun 也差不多，就不重复了。
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性格=genetics (>50%, I think) + early childhood experience
Both are not within one's own control.
Depression is caused by neurologic deficiencies (genetics or other biological defects) + environmental triggers (eg, divorce, bankruptcy, serious illness, death of loved ones, other life trauma). Of course, this is the best theory we have so far.
Chemical imbalance in the brain is both a mechanism and consequence of depression.
In my personal and subjective opinion, a life whose dominant purpose is to make other people happy is a terrible life. That does not include, however, people who derive enormous personal satisfaction and happiness from other people's happiness or adoration (eg, Andy Lau Dak-Wah and Jackie Chan Lung). I don't advocate harming other people for one's own satisfaction, of course, but if one derives satisfaction from harming other people, I guess there is no point in trying to "educate" and "change" him or her.
Both are not within one's own control.
Depression is caused by neurologic deficiencies (genetics or other biological defects) + environmental triggers (eg, divorce, bankruptcy, serious illness, death of loved ones, other life trauma). Of course, this is the best theory we have so far.
Chemical imbalance in the brain is both a mechanism and consequence of depression.
In my personal and subjective opinion, a life whose dominant purpose is to make other people happy is a terrible life. That does not include, however, people who derive enormous personal satisfaction and happiness from other people's happiness or adoration (eg, Andy Lau Dak-Wah and Jackie Chan Lung). I don't advocate harming other people for one's own satisfaction, of course, but if one derives satisfaction from harming other people, I guess there is no point in trying to "educate" and "change" him or her.
我觉得个人约束能力也是还有点关系，胡乱估一下，有10%？Jun wrote:性格=genetics (>50%, I think) + early childhood experience
Both are not within one's own control.
当然，天生来的个性性格特征是挺重要的。
前阵子随便翻翻唐师曾的一本新书，我看了几页就想：这人可有点manic倾向。以前看他的书，就隐隐约约觉得不对劲，折腾得要命，这本新的愈演愈烈，才叫我觉出来。好了，后面继续看，原来他真的得了“躁郁”，还大谈病友小崔（崔永元）。
崔永元是另一个极端，心里特钻牛角尖儿那种。看过他的访谈，好么，符合他标准的健康社会，你上月球上找，也找不着。这么给自己“找别扭”的个性，难免不生精神疾患。
个人约束能力 is also part of a person's 性格.
How much in a person's personality is within his or her control or even influenced by life experience AFTER 2 years old? Who knows. But my opinion is that this portion is severely exaggerated in most people's mind. I'd say 1% in most cases. Perhaps slightly higher if you are willing to go into cognitive and behavioral therapy. Most people are not.
How much in a person's personality is within his or her control or even influenced by life experience AFTER 2 years old? Who knows. But my opinion is that this portion is severely exaggerated in most people's mind. I'd say 1% in most cases. Perhaps slightly higher if you are willing to go into cognitive and behavioral therapy. Most people are not.
我对精神病知道的不多，遗传知道一些。假设有些人的神经突触上接受“抑郁信号“的受体比平均水平高，或是接受“快乐信号“的受体比平均水平低，或者受体有突变不能正常接受信号，那么他们的精神可能就会表现出来有问题。旁人看来不觉得他们是少了耳朵鼻子，一样吃一样睡，就归结为他们人格有缺陷。人格缺陷，很大程度上还是生理缺陷。人容易累，容易腰酸背疼，别人都会理解；容易想不开，爱伤心，在过去别人就难理解了，觉得是自找的。
我这儿说的“信号“是一个笼统的概念，实际上并没有包装好的快乐或忧郁神经递质，应该是某些化学物质在脑子的某些区域相互作用的结果。控制它的基因有很多，所以人的性格多种多样但可以分类。如Jun所说，很多人生下来都基因注定了很多事。不说别的，只说我们成天写在paper里，1％的新生儿有先天性心脏病的就是。
我这儿说的“信号“是一个笼统的概念，实际上并没有包装好的快乐或忧郁神经递质，应该是某些化学物质在脑子的某些区域相互作用的结果。控制它的基因有很多，所以人的性格多种多样但可以分类。如Jun所说，很多人生下来都基因注定了很多事。不说别的，只说我们成天写在paper里，1％的新生儿有先天性心脏病的就是。
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终生服药
A child with type 1 diabetes has to self-inject insulin multiple times a day for the rest of her life.
A young woman with rheumatoid arthritis has to receive immunosuppressive injections or infusions every month for the rest of her life.
A man with renal failure has to undergo dialysis indefinitely until he can receive a kidney transplant.
A person with Down syndrome has to live with mental retardation for the rest of his life.
If you consider these tragedies in life as character-building 挫折, they are merely inconveniences to cope with. If you consider them unbearable and unlivable, then that's a reason for suicide.
Depression is no different, except that the "regular people" including family members and friends do not see it as similar to a chronic illness like diabetes. Also depression affects the patient's ability to see that they can cope and manage and still live a productive and, yes, happy life.
It's that simple. It's that hard.
A child with type 1 diabetes has to self-inject insulin multiple times a day for the rest of her life.
A young woman with rheumatoid arthritis has to receive immunosuppressive injections or infusions every month for the rest of her life.
A man with renal failure has to undergo dialysis indefinitely until he can receive a kidney transplant.
A person with Down syndrome has to live with mental retardation for the rest of his life.
If you consider these tragedies in life as character-building 挫折, they are merely inconveniences to cope with. If you consider them unbearable and unlivable, then that's a reason for suicide.
Depression is no different, except that the "regular people" including family members and friends do not see it as similar to a chronic illness like diabetes. Also depression affects the patient's ability to see that they can cope and manage and still live a productive and, yes, happy life.
It's that simple. It's that hard.
It's no the same. It's much harder. You already pointed out:
I thought the more I understand it, the more strong and optimistic I would become. It turns out to be the opposite. Now I can only pray for miracle.
This is the most difficult part compared to most of the treatable physical illness. If a person wants to live, OK, let's give him whatever help we can offer. If a person insists on death, what shall we do? Most of the patients don't want to get treatment and refused to cope with the doctors or family. It could be a life-long struggle between the patient and his family.Also depression affects the patient's ability to see that they can cope and manage and still live a productive and, yes, happy life.
I thought the more I understand it, the more strong and optimistic I would become. It turns out to be the opposite. Now I can only pray for miracle.
基因这个东西，不完全是先天决定的。后天因素也通过先天机制起作用。我小人家曾经看过一篇paper说同窝小鼠中被母鼠抚爱较多的小鼠，它们的一个神经受体的基因被甲基化的程度轻，表达量高；得不到抚爱的那些，这个基因被甲基化得严重，至在脑中表达的量低得多，这些小鼠表现得缺乏安全感，歇斯底里。
基因与环境并非完全分开的，基因的编码是一回事，表达是一回事，表达后修饰又是另一回事。基因的表达和表达后修饰，很大程度上受环境影响。就象有人易于得心血管病，但如果从年轻的时候就注意饮食，心血管堵塞的机会比完全不注意要小得多一样。
刚才没说清，我说的先天性心脏病，是那些壁上有洞，脉管没分开，四联症，心肌发育不全或过度发育。。。。典型的基因缺陷。这些是visible的，由此推之，那些功能我们尚不清楚或调节机制不清楚的基因的多样性或出错的机会，也是不小的。先天性心脏病是既成事实，问题已经在那里，需要用手术或药物解决；后天性心脏病，以及许多“倾向性“，尚未被触发。可以避免，但是在相同的不特别注意的情况下，得病或出错的机会比wild type要高。
基因与环境并非完全分开的，基因的编码是一回事，表达是一回事，表达后修饰又是另一回事。基因的表达和表达后修饰，很大程度上受环境影响。就象有人易于得心血管病，但如果从年轻的时候就注意饮食，心血管堵塞的机会比完全不注意要小得多一样。
刚才没说清，我说的先天性心脏病，是那些壁上有洞，脉管没分开，四联症，心肌发育不全或过度发育。。。。典型的基因缺陷。这些是visible的，由此推之，那些功能我们尚不清楚或调节机制不清楚的基因的多样性或出错的机会，也是不小的。先天性心脏病是既成事实，问题已经在那里，需要用手术或药物解决；后天性心脏病，以及许多“倾向性“，尚未被触发。可以避免，但是在相同的不特别注意的情况下，得病或出错的机会比wild type要高。
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Based on a lot of research in developmental psychology and behavioral studies, the answer is -- pretty much all of a person's character/personality that is not congenital is determined by the pattern of care they receive in infancy (0-1 year).我一直想知道童年(<=2)的TRAUMA对成年心理会有多大影响.
It does not take trauma or abuse to negatively affect a person's emotional and personality make-up.
Although I am not a child psychologist or epidemiologist, I am quite sure the above statement is not true.我怎么觉得绝大多数人这个时间都是被呵护备至.
Just look around, adults who have a strong self-image, a sense of security, the ability to form healthy and trusting relationships with others, capability of intimacy, resilience in adversity, and optimism are those who have received attentive, sensitive, and responsive care in their infancy. And think about how common these people are in the general population.
Of course, dysfunctional personality and psychology in people may be related to genes, but a large part is a result of neglect in early development.
Neglect is not limited to letting a baby go hungry or soiled for hours. More information can be found in the reference below:
http://aspe.hhs.gov/daltcp/reports/inatrpt.htm
Now you can finally trust me! 
Other resources include National Institute of Mental Health, American Psychological Association, American Psychiatric Association, http://www.spsp.org/, books like "Emotional Intelligence," etc.
Because psychology is still a discipline with a lot of crap and pseudoscience mixed in, I'd take things I read with a grain of salt and check the source with discrimination.
Other resources include National Institute of Mental Health, American Psychological Association, American Psychiatric Association, http://www.spsp.org/, books like "Emotional Intelligence," etc.
Because psychology is still a discipline with a lot of crap and pseudoscience mixed in, I'd take things I read with a grain of salt and check the source with discrimination.