恶人谷

话说湾区犹太人多，多到过江之鲫。我自己就仿佛陷入了犹太人民的海洋。我的五个dissertation committee members, 四个是犹太人, 包括我尊敬的导师大人。我的labmate兼损友R， 是以色列薄厚。 我的主要co-author之一 M, 曾经是以色列国家青年男篮的队员。 然后来了米国，在北卡打大学男篮挣学费，然后过来读了博士。我觉得M很了不起。 但是R很看不起他， 说他是为了逃避兵役才来米国打球的。 R在以色列服了四年兵役，因为表现出色，多服役一年， 曾经是intelligence 部门的女officer. 当我听说她曾经是intelligence department, 留着口水问是不是摩萨德，她白了我一眼，说你就知道个摩萨德，以色列的情报部门不止摩萨德一个，他们部门属于后勤技术支持。

R 和 M 都是非常有故事的人，R 不说了，M娶了个立志做下一个希拉里的野心女人，JD, phd,　现在开始做助理prosecutor了。M和我关系一直不错，可是他的老婆，让我非常无语。每次吃饭，我都会和她争执起来，　西藏问题，人权问题，　等等。

anyway, 回来说R, R的家在以色列北部城市，对，你没有听错，就是这次冲突的中心地带。她妈和她妹妹都在当地医院工作。要说R的家世也是相～当～的不错。　祖父母移民以色列后白手起家，　挣下不少产业，　在以国好多地方都有不动产。在冲突所在地，他们家有好几个apartment供出租。　冲突到现在，R的父母妹妹还是没有离开那个城市，我非常不理解，问她为啥，她说如果大家都走了，那么谁还留下哪，　我说废话，那就都走吧。　她瞪着我，仿佛我是天外飞仙。　

上周五的时候，早上六点刚过，:let_me_die: 　R同学给我打电话，说新闻上报了她妈妈妹妹的医院被一枚火箭炮击中。她试图和她们联系，电话永远接不上。　我一听，也吓醒了。　徒填其乱地问，那怎么办，然后试图安慰她说，一枚火箭炮，威力应该不大。她抓矿了一会儿。先挂了电话。过了一个半小时，又打给我说，她在intelligence department的哥们说了，那个医院没有伤亡。　 后来她妹妹的电话终于打通了。火箭炮来的时候，她正好在地下室，她妈妈那天没有上班。

周五下午的时候，她的情绪平复了很多。把从她爸妈那里听来的故事贩给我。　说她爸妈有个邻居，　家里有只鸟，　我们比划半天没有说明白该鸟的总类，　反正这只鸟非常有天分，　每天，火箭炮来袭前，　当地的警察会用高音喇叭通知大家进地下室躲避。几天以后，这只鸟就学会了。每次家里有客人来的时候（不要问我为什么还有客人来，我问R了，她说，这个时候大家更加要交流，　我 ）, 该聪明鸟就用极大的声音通知大家进地下室躲避．　如此几次，我非常担心地把狼来了的故事告诉了R,希望她告诉大家，一定要小心．

她爸妈还有一个邻居，家里有只兔子．刚刚开始空袭的时候，该兔子绝食，全身颤抖地缩在窝里．　没两天，毛都快掉光了．后来，习惯了，皮实多了，毛就又长出来了．

the end.

我听说男女都要服兵役三年. 要做技术后勤要服务六年. 很多人退役了还留在预备役里.我上次遇到的CTO, 平时做CTO, 满世界开会度假, 每年一个月上坦克杀人.

豪情 wrote:我听说男女都要服兵役三年. 要做技术后勤要服务六年. 很多人退役了还留在预备役里.我上次遇到的CTO, 平时做CTO, 满世界开会度假, 每年一个月上坦克杀人.

同

俺们这里有个同事是黎巴嫩人

小情说的没错. 而且才不管你公司里是不是有死线, 你老婆是不是明天就要生孩子, 定了哪天要你回军队你就得哪天回. 我以前的犹太同事就是受不了这个才移民加拿大的.

小涵快填土，这个话题有意思。
我知道的犹太人，都很恋(祖)国 (跟我相比 )。academic里面不少犹太人，是在美国兼个半职，一半时间，还是在Tel Avi过，即使那里销烟弥漫，还是舍不得举家离开。

而且才不管你公司里是不是有死线, 你老婆是不是明天就要生孩子, 定了哪天要你回军队你就得哪天回.

这是应该的. 美国的RESERVE也是这样. 就是美国在RESERVE里呆着的人比例低大家不太觉得. 我有同事上战场, 按法律职位要给他们留着.
黎以再打下去美国不止预备役要上, 恐怕要征兵了.

我总觉得，不论哪个国家，活生生的人送上战场是最不人道的事情。
太残酷了，特别对家里等着的人来说。

森林的火焰 wrote:活生生的人送上战场是最不人道的事情。

还有别的送法么？或者不送活生生的去？

不能这么说，他们上前线，是为了家里人能活着等。

war is old man talking and young man dying

tiffany wrote:war is old man talking and young man dying

对，就是这个，我觉得太不公平了。
那些年轻人根本不了解发生了什么事，于已何干就去打仗了，想的不过是回来换个上大学的机会。

昨天CNN还因为报道了参议员McCain的儿子参加Marine（http://digg.com/world_news/Senator_John ... he_Marines），
问观众“If Politicians and their Children had to go to WAR in the Front lines do you think they would start one?”

不过我觉得以色列的问题不是这个。

不能这么说，他们上前线，是为了家里人能活着等。

大部分时候不是为了这个缘故。当然说为石油/经济利益而打太直白了些。

我是特指以巴冲突。我倒希望这个战争是直接为了经济利益！但是他们之间的仇恨太深，血债累累，双方都早就超过想占地掠夺的阶段，已经就是你死我活。Hezbollah 的政治宣言就是要消灭以色列，以色列就是要把Hezbollah 给灭了才能放心。

豪情 wrote:

而且才不管你公司里是不是有死线, 你老婆是不是明天就要生孩子, 定了哪天要你回军队你就得哪天回.

这是应该的. 美国的RESERVE也是这样. 就是美国在RESERVE里呆着的人比例低大家不太觉得. 我有同事上战场, 按法律职位要给他们留着.
黎以再打下去美国不止预备役要上, 恐怕要征兵了.

和美国不一样. 美国和中国一样, 是自愿服役. 以色列和台湾一样, 是到年龄就得服役. 服役期满后预备役也是必须服的, 自己没有选择.

但是当初他们建这个国家就知道要不断打仗才能生存, 第一代公民都是自愿加入的.
台独们不知道有没有一色列人那样的决心.

服役期满后预备役也是必须服的, 自己没有选择.

难怪我的邻居来回跑.

伊朗也是人人要服兵役, 但是花点钱贿赂就可以拿到个批准暂免.

中东那里的人，妥协是不在他们考虑范围之内的。说妥协就是卖国。
其实打到这个份上，早就没有谁有理没理的事了。如果还都想生存，不如放下过去，相安无事，不再追究以前的事情。
可能那里的普通人早就只剩这点愿望了，只是极端分子有钱有枪有势力支持，一直绑架着所有人要把战开下去。

如果还都想生存，不如放下过去，相安无事，不再追究以前的事情。

It is easier said than done. Those whose mother or daughter is just killed yesterday, will they agree with you? For people who want their home back, will they agree with you? Imagine in 1932, you lived in Manchuria, someone said "let's face it, Japanese are to stay, let's reach an agreement and live with them in peace", what your reaction would be? Hezbollah is very popular among the locals, and it is for a reason.
I am not saying I support them. I am saying they have support among certain group of "regular" people, and it is very scary.

很难讲，其实双方抢夺的仍旧是土地资源，那么小的一块地方，有你没我，光靠仇恨大概撑不了这么长时间。

When it comes to the Middle East, it's always a pile of stinking entangled dark mess. It's not as simple as Palestinians and Israelis fighting over a piece of land. Behind Palestinians are most of the Arab countries who dare not directly oppose Israel and United States. Behind Israel are millions American (and other) Jews and their money at work in Washington and in Israel. They have the nuclear weapon. You throw in oil that the whole world are after. The fire in ME have not been put out, because there is no incentive for the parties in power to do so.

Yes, I believe most Palestinians would like to live in peace with Israel, if they get a place to build their homes and find a job and do business with Israelis and are not subjected to subhuman treatment. Most Israelis would probably like to live in peace with Palestinians too, as long as they still keep most of the land they took in the 60s to settle their own influx of immigrants. However, most Arab countries would rather see Israel demonized in the eye of the world (except the news barricade in US) as long as they don't have to suffer any direct consequences; and United States prefer to use Israel to weaken Syria and Iran by letting Israel fight this proxy war. And Syria and Iran and probably a few other Arab countries are happily supporting Hezbullah as long as the bombs don't drop on their own soil while they continue to make a killing in the world oil market and take billions of profit straight from the American consumers. Yes, isn't it IRONIC. The SUVs and $3++/gallon gasoline and our favorite Vice President Dick Cheney are all directly tired into the screaming crying Lebanese civilians and the Lebanese children who get their brains blown out by Israeli bombs.

When Islamic nations were powerful and rich in the medieval times, Jews, Christians, Muslims all lived in peace together for centuries. But modern Imperialism and the all-important oil changed all of that. I'm not trying to trace back who was the ultimate culprit here, which is a long complicated story that isn't going to solve any problem, but it is important to recognize that the British Empire more or less started a series of events that contributed to the state of affairs in that region, and the dominos of conflict were carried on by the U.S. Imperialism after WW2.

And if you really want to dig, I suspect Hitler has something to do with today's ME conflicts too. Without the Holocaust, Jews would not feel the urgency to establish their own country (who can blame them) after WW2, and the "countries in charge" would not be shamed into helping them kick out the Arabs in the region and establish Israel in the late 40s.

Lebanon is stuck in the middle because reason has nothing to do with anything in world affairs. There is no justice or logic. Lebanon has always been a country with great diversity in ethnicity and religion. It has not historical hatred or conflicts with Israel. IRONICALLY, it makes for a perfect battle ground, because it is so weak that it cannot protect itself while other countries fight wars on its soil. Nobody gives a damn about Lebanon because heck what can they do? Fighting war on other people's land is the perfect way to do it --- it's not just United States who understands this trick.

Knowing wrote:我是特指以巴冲突。我倒希望这个战争是直接为了经济利益！但是他们之间的仇恨太深，血债累累，双方都早就超过想占地掠夺的阶段，已经就是你死我活。Hezbollah 的政治宣言就是要消灭以色列，以色列就是要把Hezbollah 给灭了才能放心。

4，要是只为了钱的话估计比较好谈拢。

表扬勤奋的小涵

well, the chance of getting killed by one of those katyusha-style rockets hizbollah uses is much smaller than by an israeli airstrike. i know way too little about this conflict--i tend to tune out when my colleagues talk about the many layers of israel-lebanon-hizbollah-syria-iran-shi'a-suni wrangling, but in a conflict with such imbalanced military capabilities, it's not hard to guess who bears the brunt of the cost.

our middle east analysts can't come to an agreement on their analysis--perhaps not surprising since one is lebanese. of course they maintain quite a bit of critical distance and do a pretty good job, but the nature of this conflict seeps in more than any other conflicts, i'm sure.

Jun wrote: I suspect Hitler has something to do with today's ME conflicts too. Without the Holocaust, Jews would not feel the urgency to establish their own country (who can blame them) after WW2, and the "countries in charge" would not be shamed into helping them kick out the Arabs in the region and establish Israel in the late 40s.

今天早上听BBC广播，一个在英国的中东专家分析目前西方国家在争端中的立场：美国和英国站在以色列一边，continental欧洲国家除了一个例外，其它都比较同情黎巴嫩，而谴责以色列。那一个例外是德国，遇到以色列的事儿，德国总是说话不硬气，不大敢明确反对以色列。

美国和英国站在以色列一边

UK is on the US side only because Tony Blair is GW Bush's lapdog. I don't think the public or the media or others are on Blair's side.

鸟和兔子真可爱。

很难讲，其实双方抢夺的仍旧是土地资源，那么小的一块地方，有你没我，光靠仇恨大概撑不了这么长时间。

最早是抢土地。打了那么多年，血债累累，没仇恨的也有仇恨了，仇恨是越集越深，不是打打消了气就没有的。这个是正反馈系统。

It has not historical hatred or conflicts with Israel.

看你怎么定义“历史”仇恨了。从以色列八十年代初入侵黎巴嫩，已经二十多年过去了，这个仇恨就可以叫历史仇恨了。父亲母亲在那次入侵里死掉的孩子，也已经长成了青年，拿起枪来报仇了。
我完全同意这个仗那么多年都断断续续打不完，是两边背后都有利益集团支持，不然打不了那么久。我是说打到现在，事情已经比当初更复杂，双方也都是骑虎难下，不是人民都盼望和平那么简单。不象伊拉克战争，纯粹是利益战争，美国人民真要急了，换个总统，说撤军还撤的下来，伊拉克也没法追过来。假设美国一撤军，伊拉克军队重振旗鼓有能力追过来打美国本土，美国敢不敢撤军就不那么简单。

The so-called 人民 has exactly ZERO influence on any significant decisions that affect their livelihood. And they wouldn't know what to do with it even if they had any influence. Hail DEMOCRACY.

Their is no exact 人民. In US red states and blue states are divided. In Mideast religion, country and race divide people into many groups. Hezbollah is very popular with the Shia Community because of the social service they provide. They are much more like Red Army in ShangBei than Saddam in Iraq.

我完全同意这个仗那么多年都断断续续打不完，是两边背后都有利益集团支持，不然打不了那么久。

完全完全同意，所以这场战争会让人觉得特别disgusting。过去的战争好歹大部分还是自身的利益诉求。

人民之间能和平相处吗? 我很怀疑. 我的以色列同事是不愿意打仗才移民的. 可是他对巴勒斯坦人恨之入骨. 他说在加拿大大大街上遇到巴勒斯坦人他不可能文明礼貌, 因为任何巴勒斯坦人对他来说都是敌人.

恐怖主义集团，可以一打几十年的那种，都有海外国外的利益支持。包括爱尔兰共和军。现在恐怖主义不吃香不work了，ＩＲＡ终于宣布放下武器。小爱说，他们是一群反对不存在的敌人的白痴。可是他们以前也是有美国的天主教爱尔兰裔支持的，大笔钱汇到ＩＲＡ的账户给our boys。
我对这些老人出钱年轻人流血的事情，感到很愤怒。如果真的血溅在老人脸上，恐怕他们也没有这么心安理得地把整件事情当作一个"doable project".

人民之间能和平相处吗? 我很怀疑.

Yes, under certain conditions, at certain time. Our time now is not the time.

dropby wrote:人民之间能和平相处吗? 我很怀疑. 我的以色列同事是不愿意打仗才移民的. 可是他对巴勒斯坦人恨之入骨. 他说在加拿大大大街上遇到巴勒斯坦人他不可能文明礼貌, 因为任何巴勒斯坦人对他来说都是敌人.

冲突双方都觉得自己是最冤的那个，甚至是世界上古往今来所有冲突里最冤的那个。有谁敢质疑，就是伤害了民族感情。
国内很多人都觉得东欧国家象波兰应该很怀念社会主义时期，可是我们的波兰人都非常痛恨俄罗斯，说：看看它对我们都做了什么！他会讲俄语，可以读俄国作品，都是小时候一定要学的。这是洗脑成功？不成功？有个克罗地亚女孩，有一次一起去听讲座，她突然跟我说，你有没有觉得讲话的那个人长得象列宁？学校里总有画像的。
邻居总是讨厌邻居，瑞典芬兰挪威这样的都半开玩笑半认真。稍微离得远一点的，都非常不解：你们不是差不多的么。
我一直不明白这是为什么。

森林的火焰 wrote: 邻居总是讨厌邻居，瑞典芬兰挪威这样的都半开玩笑半认真。稍微离得远一点的，都非常不解：你们不是差不多的么。
我一直不明白这是为什么。

我们也不喜欢日本，北朝鲜，越南，蒙古，俄罗斯，（也许还包括台湾。）

有谁一直喜欢谁的例子没有？
大概最好的模式是互相tolerate，“和平共处”五项原则。

可怜的兔子.

森林的火焰 wrote:国内很多人都觉得东欧国家象波兰应该很怀念社会主义时期，可是我们的波兰人都非常痛恨俄罗斯，说：看看它对我们都做了什么！他会讲俄语，可以读俄国作品，都是小时候一定要学的。这是洗脑成功？不成功？有个克罗地亚女孩，有一次一起去听讲座，她突然跟我说，你有没有觉得讲话的那个人长得象列宁？学校里总有画像的。
邻居总是讨厌邻居，瑞典芬兰挪威这样的都半开玩笑半认真。稍微离得远一点的，都非常不解：你们不是差不多的么。
我一直不明白这是为什么。

"东欧国家象波兰应该很怀念社会主义时期" that's coz chinese never learned about how the soviet union treated eastern europe. who in poland could miss a country that reached a secret pact with the nazis to divide up their country? who in czechoslovakia would miss a country that sent in tanks when there was the first sign of autonomy?

of course neighbors are the ones hating each other. before the age of long-range bombers and missiles, neighbors are the only ones you can get at. plus, in human interaction, we fight with neighbors, not strangers, over pets, kids, noise, trash collection, etc. what's not to hate?

Our information access and weaponry, our knowledge of human genetic evoluation, and our communication methods have stormed into the 21st century. Our tribal and familial instincts (and eating habits and metabolic pathways and mating rituals etc.) are staying in the stone age.

That's what gets me every time -- the irony that people so firmly believe in their ability to control their destiny and their behavior and their conscious choices, when they don't control shit. You think you choose xyz because you have a clear and logical and sound mind, but in reality choice is an illusion, freedom is an illusion, democracy is an illusion, control is an illusion.

Lunchtime is also an illusion.

Just read this article from Economist.com

http://www.economist.com/world/na/displ ... id=7255198

Why America gives Israel its unconditional support

The main two polical forces it mentioned are AIPAC and the religious right. And the latter is totally new to me.

The Christian right is also solidly behind Israel. White evangelicals are significantly more pro-Israeli than Americans in general; more than half of them say they strongly sympathise with Israel. (A third of the Americans who claim sympathy with Israel say that this stems from their religious beliefs.) Two in five Americans believe that Israel was given to the Jewish people by God, and one in three say that the creation of the state of Israel was a step towards the Second Coming.

Religious-right activists are trying to convert this latent sympathy into political support. John Hagee, a Texas televangelist who believes that supporting Israel is a “biblical imperative”, recently founded Christians United for Israel. Last month he brought 3,500 people from across the country to Washington to cheer Israel's war against Hizbullah. Mr Hagee's brigades held numerous meetings on Capitol Hill; both Mr Bush and Mr Olmert sent messages to his rally.

These pressure groups are clearly influential. Evangelical Christians make up about a quarter of the American electorate and are the bedrock of Mr Bush's support. Congressmen take on AIPAC at their peril. But they deal with well-heeled lobbies every day. And the power of the religious right can hardly explain why Democrats are so keen on Israel. Two other factors need to be considered: the war on Islamic radicalism, and deep cultural affinities between America and Israel.

Another reason -- "Seeing themselves in Israel"

Americans instinctively see events in the Middle East through the prism of September 11th 2001. They look at Hizbullah and Hamas with their Islamist slogans and masked faces and see the people who attacked America―and they look at Israeli citizens and see themselves. In America the “war on terror” is a fact of life, constantly reiterated. The sense that America is linked with Israel in a war against Islamist extremism is reinforced by Iranian statements about wiping Israel off the surface of the earth, and by the political advance of the Islamists of Hamas in Palestine.

But the biggest reason why Americans are so pro-Israel may be cultural. Americans see Israel as a plucky democracy in a sea of autocracies―a democracy that has every right to use force to defend itself. Europeans, on the other hand, see Israel as a reminder of the atavistic forces―from nationalism to militarism―that it has spent the post-war years trying to grow beyond.

Americans are staunch nationalists, much readier to contemplate the use of force than Europeans. A German Marshall Fund survey in 2005 found 42% of Americans strongly agreeing that “under some conditions, war is necessary to obtain justice” compared with just 11% of Europeans. A Pew survey found that the same proportion of Americans and Israelis believe in the use of pre-emptive force: 66%. Continental European figures were far lower.