[分享] Carolyn Hax: On Premarital Sex

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Jun
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[分享] Carolyn Hax: On Premarital Sex

Post by Jun » 2008-08-26 14:26

Actually this is an entry from a reader that she published in her column. I think every unmarried young woman should read it. In addition, although it is more difficult, many older divorced or single women can attain physical and emotional intimacy if they work toward it (and abandon the preconceived notion that older adults don't date and mate).
On longing for intimacy:

Yes, it is true that we don't get everything in life, and it is true that we all have to learn to live with and appreciate what we do get, not rely upon others to make the core of us happy, etc. But it really is very, very difficult.

I am now moving into old age. I was married for a very long time to, and eventually divorced from, a man who did not value that part of life, or was not able to. I was raised in a time when premarital intimacy was heavily censured, and I went along as did many women my age. I didn't get what I needed in my marriage, and it turned out there were few opportunities for an older, middle-aged woman after I divorced.

The longing has never left.

For all the excesses and misuses of sexuality in the modern world, I still think it is better than the severe restrictions on premarital sex and extramarital sex that some of us grew up with.

With a little experience, I might have chosen differently. If we married badly, and stayed married and followed the rules, then our chances for a different life were reduced.

I will mourn this loss forever. It is not assuaged by the successful career I have had, or the good society of friends I have, or the deeply meaningful community work I have done, or the more mature religious faith I finally developed. I may not talk about it, I may not complain about it, I may not even let on to anyone else, but this deep, unsatisfied yearning is with me all the time.
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Knowing
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Post by Knowing » 2008-08-26 14:34

uh? what's your point? People have needs. What's so shocking about this?
it turned out there were few opportunities for an older, middle-aged woman after I divorced.
That's is crap, crap, crap. I have seen it a lot among my successful overachiever female friends. They want a man that's everything (even though they say they don't). And when it doesn't happen, they blame it on the age. The truth is, at any age woman can have a happy life with plenty of emotional and physical intimacy, if she puts her mind to it. But if she insists on finding the one man who is her soulmate, physically attracted to her and she is physically attracted to, great sex (because "being a good girl I can't enjoy sex with anyone who is not my soulmate and deeply in love with!") and socially a big plus when she takes him out to friends dinner parties -- good luck.
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Post by Jun » 2008-08-26 14:54

Who said it's shocking?

You live a fab life in New York City. I put this out for non-fabulous people living in the middle of nowhere.
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Knowing
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Post by Knowing » 2008-08-26 15:06

Who I am or where I live has nothing to do with this. We are not discussing my life. From her description of her life: "successful career I have had, or the good society of friends I have, or the deeply meaningful community work I have done, or the more mature religious faith I finally developed", she lives a rich and satisfying life in every espect she has worked on. But since she ties intimacy first with marriage, then with relationship after divorce, her needs in that aspect never gets the attention she should have given, like dessert that comes after dinner. She did not realize she could have just dessert, only have dessert or have dessert first.

Same thing with kids. I have friends who whine a lot "I want kids but I don't want to do it alone". Well if you want kids badly enough, you should do it alone. Stop expecting it as a byproduct of a perfect marriage.

Nobody has it all. If you want to blame it on age, look or where you live, fine. But I can say this, among everyone I know well enough, nobody has it all. Everyone has to prioritize and go for what's more important, either at the moment or in the long run. Such is life. Realizing physical intimacy is important for her and what's missing most in her life, great. Work on it. She has time. She is still alive, isn't she?
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Post by 笑嘻嘻 » 2008-08-26 16:14

是啊,是啊。 :party002:
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Post by Jun » 2008-08-26 16:47

如果她英明神武,一点包袱和问题都没有,我贴上来干嘛?展览完美人生的先进标兵?

住在保守地区的人民,更容易陷入“不试婚”,保持纯洁献给配偶的压力么。现在很多小孩子都加入了“保存自己”的宗教运动,原旨主义教宗们喜欢发放virginity rings,给小孩子戴着。应该给她们看点前车之鉴。
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Post by Jun » 2008-08-26 18:35

忘记说了,婚前的“纯洁”风险太大,还包括能否“过滤”掉在柜橱中的对象。没有经过亲密的接触,怎能肯定对方一定是直的呢?
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Post by orangetabby » 2008-08-26 20:19

Reading this, I thought of a childhood friend. She was “纯洁” enough and the mini-social circle she's in was conservative enough, that she married a guy with ED. For over 10 years.

She did get a divorce in the end.

If I have a daughter, I will push her to at least "test drive" before committing.
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Post by Knowing » 2008-08-26 21:08

也不能这么说。婚前试车也不能百分百把弯男试出来。我知道好些弯男能跟女人做,订婚七年的,结婚二十年生了俩孩子的,都有,一边一直偷偷摸摸出去跟男人搞。婚后发现不和谐,离婚就是了,还能怎么办。
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Post by putaopi » 2008-08-26 23:48

婚前只试一两个的话,不见得有用。必须多比较几个,才能分得出好坏。 :mrgreen:

其实运气最重要,跟要好的女朋友们多交流多探讨也很有帮助,就是要有个supporting system。

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Post by nanping » 2008-08-27 0:32

我一个女同学说,处朋友处了六个月还没有home run,那就是男方有问题。不过我觉得只要环境足够open和supportive,这种事还是水到渠成最好,做与不做,做到哪个程度,个人的具体情况不同,没必要往哪个特别的方向push。ED的比例是多少,gay的比例是多少,现实中非ED的直人,离婚率又是多少?

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Post by Knowing » 2008-08-27 7:16

对啊,就是这个理,婚姻不合适,性生活不愉快,可能有很多原因,不可能都在婚前用一套简单的测试试出来。
人和人priority 也不一样。有些女性愿意花六个月时间相处来发现对方是不是合适后才上床。有些女性宁可早点上床来决定对方是不是投资六个月的宝贵时间。这主要得看你是不是有很多时间。。。。
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Post by Jun » 2008-08-27 7:23

不可能都在婚前用一套简单的测试试出来。
那当然,婚了几十年还会忽然变心的呢,谁也不能保证永远不会离婚。但是不能保证不等于婚前就不需要多多了解,毕竟离婚的价钱挺高的,没的喂饱了律师会计,说不定还要无限期抚养对方,多浪费。
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Post by Knowing » 2008-08-27 7:26

如果ED 或gay 发现的快, 可以申请annulment 。 把脸一抹就当啥也没发生过。很天主教的说。 :mrgreen:

不可能无限期抚养对方吧。不是说是婚姻的一半长度?

我一向的意见就是,如果你比对方有钱很多,就不要结婚,随便睡睡得了。
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Post by Jun » 2008-08-27 7:35

我一向的意见就是,如果你比对方有钱很多,就不要结婚,随便睡睡得了。
What if he is an ambitious politician who may become the president one day? That could help my business empire.
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Post by Knowing » 2008-08-27 8:10

I suggest wait until he gets elected. He might not make it, you know.
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Post by 豪情 » 2008-08-27 9:54

好多讨论都是假设"婚前" 性的目的是完美婚姻, 好象只要不结婚, 这个关系只是一个前奏和过程. 非婚关系有没有好处对不对也不能光用是否对最后找到好婚姻有好处衡量吧. 婚姻好与否也不能用最后是否离婚衡量.
我将来对孩子, 不分男女, 的建议是, 喜欢信赖做好保护就可以DATE, 天时地利人和有需要就结婚, 婚姻不好了能处理好收场就离婚.

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Post by putaopi » 2008-08-27 10:09

豪情 wrote:好多讨论都是假设"婚前" 性的目的是完美婚姻,
婚前sex当然是为了sex,说是“试婚”不过是给自己和周围的人一个冠冕堂皇的借口罢了。

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Post by Knowing » 2008-08-27 10:13

这一层薄薄的面纱你们也要撕掉?惊骇的问。
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Post by 豪情 » 2008-08-27 10:17

人性是哪里都一样的, 但性活动和婚姻都有很重的社会背景.如果社会能接受不婚的性关系, 可以象我上面说的做. 如果社会不接受, 只接受订婚的试婚, 也不妨试婚. 都不接受, 那么要不禁欲, 要不保护好自己偷偷进行. 性本身没有太多对与不对, 但是和社会对着干, 肯定比较困难, 有能力有担当, 愿意付出代价当然也可以.

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Post by nanping » 2008-08-27 11:11

说到离婚,听到看过很多这样的(年纪比较大的欧美籍)人,结结离离两三次,无血缘半血缘的子女若干个,但跟最后一任居然就能够从中到老,十几、几十年维持着的白头偕老。所以我很好奇,不知是他们的择偶技巧高明成熟了终于找对了人,还是说单纯年纪大了懒得折腾,难道从概率论的角度一两次失败之后的那一次,成功比率最高??

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Post by 森林的火焰 » 2008-08-27 11:16

婚姻也有个从失败中学习的过程呀,同样的事做好几遍不能一点提高也没有。才入江湖的小公鸡虽然朝气蓬勃,就使用舒适顺手程度来说比经过几任女朋友训练的青中年要差不少。
婚姻说到底还是人际关系么,既然和同事和上下级相处的技巧能提高,那么和丈夫/妻子相处也能提高。
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Post by putaopi » 2008-08-27 11:47

Knowing wrote:这一层薄薄的面纱你们也要撕掉?惊骇的问。
有fab life的New Yorker难道还在乎面纱?乡下人无知地问。 :uhh:

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Post by Jun » 2008-08-27 12:24

年轻的时候啥都不懂,连自己想要什么都不知道,或者追求一时痛快而不想长远未来,这一点都不奇怪啊。不同年纪想要的东西也不一样。趁年轻玩儿个够,老了再settle down,也不错,比老夫老妻互相怨恨互相折磨几十年强多了。
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Post by Knowing » 2008-08-27 12:29

这问题你得问有FAB LIFE 的纽约人啊。我们程序员儿哪知道。我无知的回答。
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Post by Jun » 2008-08-27 12:36

离了婚以后是否能理直气壮地寻找第二第三第四春,在现今的社会环境下,大部分还是看本人能不能放下包袱,解放思想,轻装上阵。社会的压力不是没有,但也不象旧社会那么死硬了。不是人人都要学习邓文迪么?看她结婚离婚几次的过程,够给自己打气了吧?John McCain 越离越风光,越离越得瑟么?
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Post by Knowing » 2008-08-27 12:39

喜宝真牛,一下就竖立了邓文迪妇女解放领头羊的形象。。。 :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 不过我觉得我们还是应该向MCCAIN 学习,争取身残志坚,财色兼收。
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Post by Jun » 2008-08-27 12:47

没办法,难道还能拿 Hillary Clinton 做榜样么?
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Post by Knowing » 2008-08-27 13:11

说起来,比尔昨天在台下看老婆的眼神真温柔啊。
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Post by 豪情 » 2008-08-27 13:14

他们有没有试过婚? :mrgreen:

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Post by Jun » 2008-08-27 13:17

Chelsea looks more and more like her mother.
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Knowing
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Post by Knowing » 2008-08-27 13:32

She will be the first female president in 16 years.
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Post by 笑嘻嘻 » 2008-08-27 13:40

16 years seems too long, and too far away for me. I guess Hillary is much more patient than me and indeed a fighter.
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Post by putaopi » 2008-08-27 15:50

Knowing wrote:这问题你得问有FAB LIFE 的纽约人啊。我们程序员儿哪知道。我无知的回答。
感情“程序员”也可以做面纱,就是不让我们看fab life... :mrgreen:
豪情 wrote: 他们有没有试过婚?
肯定试过。用主贴作者的话来说,Bill是“a man who value that part of life”。此一时彼一时,Bill和Hilary都是有激情的人,年轻恋爱时可能很热乎呢。

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Post by 笑嘻嘻 » 2008-08-27 16:18

不许诋毁我们程序员。 :mrgreen: 我们都是艰苦奋斗的人。哪有那么多时间精力做酷。程序员可不是面纱。

我觉得Bill和Hilary 现在的关系也不虚伪,并不差。
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Knowing
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Post by Knowing » 2008-08-27 16:22

就是,不准跟喜宝学坏。我成天又要给资本家编程序又要上网嚼舌头忙的不可开交...
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Post by 笑嘻嘻 » 2008-08-27 16:25

是啊,我又做程序员苦力糊口,又上网写东西娱乐大家,多辛苦啊。
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Post by putaopi » 2008-08-27 17:21

犯了众怒了。。。好好,我收回。程序员不是“薄薄的面纱”,而是厚厚的。。。钞票。 :party003:

都是血汗钱。

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Post by simonsun » 2008-08-28 0:59

森林的火焰 wrote:才入江湖的小公鸡虽然朝气蓬勃,就使用舒适顺手程度来说比经过几任女朋友训练的青中年要差不少。
:mrgreen:

and Knowing, you are such an Alpha female...
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