The Burden of Beauty

Jun · Post by **Jun** » 2009-11-10 9:47

A very interesting article about physical beauty by a psychologist in the November issue of Archives of Pediatrics and Adolescent Medicine.

Too Beautiful for Suicide
Anne Dohrenwend, PhD

Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2009;163(11):976-977.

Sara (not her real name) had been withdrawing from friends and school activities, and her parents encouraged her to see a psychologist. She was a straight A student and popular. There was no history of trauma, and family dynamics were well within the norm of a loving, supportive household. She had high expectations of herself, but blamed no one for imposing undue pressure on her. She couldn't explain her ambivalence with friends and school. From her perspective, there was nothing wrong except, perhaps, boredom.

But I haven't told you my first reaction to meeting Sara, the first thing that occupied my mind, and the thing that needed unraveling before I could take the next step with her. I thought she was stunning. Not attractive, not pretty, but stunning in skin, features, shape, and movement.

I ran through the typical transference and countertransference questions that a psychologist asks in these moments. Was I attracted to her? Was she seductive? Was she histrionic? The answer was "no" to each of these questions. She was simply one of those individuals who occupy the extreme of the bell curve, and there was no way for her to play it down and no way for me not to notice.

I suspected that there was no way for anyone not to notice, and that suspicion was confirmed by the way people looked at her each time we walked from the waiting room to my office. I tried to imagine the kind of reactions from others that she likely managed on a daily basis, probably everything from mild discomfort to babbling platitudes. I wondered if the high expectations she had of herself reflected what she saw in others' eyes when they looked at her. I wondered if people gave her room to feel anything other than the way she looked: perfect.

I told her what I was thinking, and we talked matter-of-factly about the consequences of her appearance. People were always going to be jolted by her looks, at least initially, and it would be a rare thing to find someone who didn't see her, first and foremost, as beautiful. I remember the relief on her face when she admitted that it was a burden to be so beautiful. It wasn't a secret, but it was a truth that seemed to have lost its voice. After all, who has sympathy for the queen when she complains about the weight of her crown?

Great beauty is the stuff of fantasy. Sara had won the lottery in looks. If she complained about it, what would most of us say to her? Probably something like, "I wish I had that problem."

Our time together was brief. In several months, she’d be leaving for college. I thought I’d helped her. Overall, she seemed to me to be a well-functioning, healthy kid with difficulty transitioning to college, likely owing to pressures associated with culturally imposed expectations. She was used to high school and she passed every test it had to offer. She was afraid of college because it was yet another testing ground. She was exhausted from living up to perfection, and we worked together to find other, less exhausting options.

Four years passed before I heard from her again. Her voice was frail and unrecognizable. She told me that she had swallowed half a bottle of diltiazem hydrochloride and had just woken from a coma. She said she had to talk about something, and asked if I would please come to see her.

I called the nursing station, and they filled in the rest. Sara had gone into cardiac arrest. For the past week, she had been on a ventilator in an induced coma. She survived, barely, thanks to the heroic efforts of specialists, some of whom worked late into the night to monitor her condition. Sara refused to say why she had taken the pills.

On the ride up, I prepared myself for what I’d see and feel when I saw her. I was aware that I was angry with her. What permanent damage had she done to herself? What a waste! And I had to ask myself, was I reacting more strongly because of what she looked like? Was it, in my mind, more incredible for her to try to kill herself than if an unattractive girl had committed the same act? Was I shocked that someone who looked like she did could ever find her life unbearable? If you look like that, what can't be fixed that needs fixing? Isn't the battle half won? I was surprised to find these biases still pulsing beneath my rational thoughts, but they were there, alive and well.

I asked everyone to leave the room and pulled a chair up to the hospital bed. I saw the hallmarks of survived medical crisis: dry lips, IV bruising, the red outline of tape that must have held a tube in place. It sounds ridiculous, but even under these conditions, she looked great, like a sick person on a soap opera who might draw our protection but not our pity. She smiled nervously and said again that she had taken a bunch of pills and had almost died. With a sense of urgency, she told me why. She had contracted a sexually transmitted disease, and she couldn't tell her boyfriend. She couldn't tell anybody. That was her secret and her unbearable shame. She went on to describe what her life had been like, and it was clear to me that the girl I had known 4 years ago had eroded. Her life's focus had constricted to respond to that which was most reinforced by those who met her. Keeping her boyfriend, who was handsome and successful and whom she thought she might love, was more important than her schooling, her interests, and her life. Genital herpes was a stain, and it was not okay for her to be stained.

After we’d talked for some time, I invited her family back into the room. While I stood at the end of her bed preparing to leave, her gastroenterologist walked in and did a quick exam. I thought I saw a bit of awkwardness when he palpated her belly and asked how she was feeling. He summed up the plan, then walked toward the door, hesitated, and looked back. Shaking his head, he said to her, "You are so beautiful . . . don't do this again." Sara shot me a fatalistic look and rolled her eyes.

Before I left the hospital, I made a point of talking with her nurse. I asked the nurse to tell Sara's providers not to comment on her looks but instead, ask her how she's feeling. Ask her about her interests. Ask her what she thinks about the latest topic in the news, but don't focus on her appearance. The nurse's jaw dropped. "I’ve been calling her ‘my pretty patient,’" she said.

At a time when Sara most needed to be seen, she was not seen. Even though her inside screamed out, her outside managed to steal the attention time and time again.

Though I encouraged it, she never followed up with therapy, so I don't know how she's doing. I think about her sometimes. I think about the waste of someone who goes unseen. Maybe her suicide attempt will be the scar she needs to set her free, to make her finally seem real to the rest of us, but I doubt it. I think she’ll need to find an internal solution. I have little faith in the ability of humanity to resist making Marilyn Monroe out of Norma Jean Baker. Most of us will never understand what it's like to live in Sara's skin. I do know this perhaps more clearly than I did before. It is a burden to be terribly ugly, but it can also be a burden to be terribly beautiful.

CAVA · Post by **CAVA** » 2009-11-10 10:19

这个应该也跟个性有关，好看的人多了，好看而空洞无聊的人也很多，并不是谁都象Sara这样逼着自己live up to expectation的。当然，不拥有stunning beauty的人只能想象一下

Jun · Post by **Jun** » 2009-11-10 11:13

CAVA wrote:这个应该也跟个性有关，好看的人多了，好看而空洞无聊的人也很多，并不是谁都象Sara这样逼着自己live up to expectation的。当然，不拥有stunning beauty的人只能想象一下

Apparently, this young woman is a rare specimen of uncommon beauty. Sara may have indeed 逼着自己, but I am sure it was done unconsciously.

What fascinates me is how an individual interacts with people around him or her, and how this interaction shapes a person's psychological makeup. No one is an island.

Again it goes back to my favorite topic of Nature vs Nurture. Nurture is very difficult to investigate, because many of the critical environmental influences are subconscious.

The "burden of beauty" also fascinates me in terms of how non-beautiful people (ie, the vast majority of us) cope with a beautiful fellow human being in the immediate vicinity --- the conflicts of being simultaneously attracted and repulsed. When I'm around a beautiful person, even of the opposite sex, I can feel a palpable pressure that is more complicated than just admiration or attraction.

Knowing · Post by **Knowing** » 2009-11-10 11:24

I have to admit I read the whole article with the thought more people would have "I wish I had that problem".
But deep down my real thought is "I would have handled that so much better!!!!! make me pretty!!!!"

tiffany · Post by **tiffany** » 2009-11-10 11:29

yeah, right, my deepest sympathy for all the beautiful people out there.

幻儿 · Post by 幻儿 » 2009-11-10 12:04

想起很多小说写女人的绝望心理（比如＜时时刻刻＞），主角一般都是美貌富有丈夫疼爱子女孝顺，外人看来应该是无忧无虑的，她们的丈夫孩子也期待她们分分秒秒快乐幸福。但事实上，烦恼面前人人平等，她们也需要抱怨倾诉，但没人愿意听，没人同情，自己也觉得烦恼得很没道理，只好牵起嘴角装完美装快乐，日久天长就抑郁症了，最后只有自杀来解脱。

上个周末看PBS的摩门教纪录片（我也不知道为啥突然想了解摩门教

），里面有学者称犹它州是人均antidepressant用药远多于其他州。到网上一查2002年犹他州人均用药是加州的两倍纽约/新泽西州的三倍，2006年就没那么惊耸了，虽然仍然排名第一。自然就有人把这个现象同摩门教文化联系起来，认为与摩门教要求教众快乐无忧对烦恼避而不谈有关，尤其是对完美女性的要求令女人不堪重负--容貌身材要好，不能胖，照顾丈夫教育子女，永远微笑加体贴。摩门教是教众人均收入最高的教，我觉得很有可能也是最美貌的教

。
也有人说，抗抑郁症的药吃的多可不代表抑郁的人多，因为犹他州同时也是最快乐的州http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/ ... f-america/. 我觉得犹他州人还真纠结，快乐的吃着抗抑郁药。

其他两个使用抗抑郁药比较突出的州是缅因和肯塔基，缅因大约是因为见不着太阳又冷，肯塔基人不但抗抑郁药吃的多，在幸福指数的统计里也是全美第二不快乐的州，究竟为啥我猜不出来

。

Jun · Post by **Jun** » 2009-11-10 12:14

幻儿 wrote: 也有人说，抗抑郁症的药吃的多可不代表抑郁的人多，因为犹他州同时也是最快乐的州。

It was a poll. So perhaps Utahians felt more compelled/pressured/obligated to report that they are happy.

豪情 · Post by 豪情 » 2009-11-10 12:17

摩门教是教众人均收入最高的教，我觉得很有可能也是最美貌的教。

是的是的, 美女帅哥如云, 他们又早婚早育多育, 年轻人和小孩子特别多.

tiffany · Post by **tiffany** » 2009-11-10 12:19

Jun wrote:
幻儿 wrote: 也有人说，抗抑郁症的药吃的多可不代表抑郁的人多，因为犹他州同时也是最快乐的州。
It was a poll. So perhaps Utahians felt more compelled/pressured/obligated to report that they are happy.

当然我们也可以（相当有逻辑的）结论说：抗抑郁症的药导致犹他州欢乐指数升高

Jun · Post by **Jun** » 2009-11-10 12:24

It's an interesting question: Does culture (ie, social environment) MAKE a person have major depressive disorder?

Another Nature vs. Nurture question. (A safe answer would be whether a person has a disorder is an interaction between genetic/epigenetic factors and environment. But nobody knows how it works.)

幻儿 · Post by 幻儿 » 2009-11-10 12:33

Jun说的问题这里有人讨论呢：http://www.atheistnexus.org/group/exmor ... se-in-utah

Jun · Post by **Jun** » 2009-11-10 12:41

There is a tendency for people to seize on whatever causes they can think of to explain a particular effect. But they are usually wrong.

The brain is too complicated and at the moment we don't know anything about what or how depression, happiness, or any mental phenomenon is caused, influenced, or altered. Any attempt to blame/credit Mormonism, Prozac, culture, race, politics whatever for the Utahians' depression/happiness rates is pretty futile. The answer may be totally unexpected, like water content, geography, altitude/daylight/climate/pollution.

Or perhaps the survey is wrong. Some state has to be first, and Utah happens to end up there. It might have been a random phenomenon with no particular reason at all. The human consciousness does not like randomness, but it is a fact of life.

putaopi · Post by **putaopi** » 2009-11-10 13:17

看了幻儿的链接，发现了这个：难道弯曲的高房价对幸福程度影响不大？

“You’ll discover, for example, that California’s 14th district, located between San Francisco to San Jose, has the highest well-being index level. That district, considered the birthplace of Silicon Valley, also happens to have the second highest median family income of all 435 districts — and the first highest median male income of any district in the country. ”

putaopi · Post by **putaopi** » 2009-11-10 13:20

再说到美人儿的烦恼，“红颜薄命”所言不虚，美貌是巨大的asset，谁见了都动心，就是不能leave her alone。做美人儿又能活得好，是需要强大的内心的。

dropby · Post by **dropby** » 2009-11-10 13:47

我当初怀孩子的时候希望是个男孩儿，就是觉得女孩子太漂亮太丑都是烦恼。知道欢欢是个小姑娘后我很逻辑地总结根据我们俩的基因，太漂亮太丑都不大可能，百分百是个普通人儿。

Knowing · Post by **Knowing** » 2009-11-10 14:03

根据长年累月跟美女hangout 的观察，我语重心长的说：美貌能带来的额外好处多的是，远远超过坏处。你们别瞎操心了。

Judy · Post by **Judy** » 2009-11-10 14:19

美貌是能带来额外好处的，不过前提是头脑一定要好，否则真是浪费资源，混得比普通人还惨。

我有个美女朋友就是陈宝莲的翻版，想起她当年的美好就很难过。

Jun · Post by **Jun** » 2009-11-10 14:20

Knowing wrote:根据长年累月跟美女hangout 的观察，我语重心长的说：美貌能带来的额外好处多的是，远远超过坏处。你们别瞎操心了。

I find it funny and curious that the response to/speculation about beautiful individuals almost always split in two directions: They are much better off than we mortals because people uncontrollably shower them with favors and want to sleep with them, or they are far worse off because people are jealous of them and want to sleep with them.

笑嘻嘻 · Post by **笑嘻嘻** » 2009-11-10 14:23

So, at least both sides agree that people want to sleep with them.

Jun · Post by **Jun** » 2009-11-10 14:53

What I mean is, physical beauty is a very powerful thing. It is primitive and irresistible. It has a powerful effect on people around the subject. Meanwhile, the subject is affected indirectly by his or her beauty through other people's reactions. I am very curious about the dynamic: How beauty affects relationships and in turn affects all parties involved.

Knowing · Post by **Knowing** » 2009-11-10 15:48

uh? did you just figure that out?

Jun · Post by **Jun** » 2009-11-10 15:53

Gee, everyone cannot be as smart and worldly as xiao K.

I'm tired of the cliche that pretty people are spoiled by ordinary people around them and turn out to be self-centered brats. All pretty people cannot be the same.

tiffany · Post by **tiffany** » 2009-11-10 15:55

jun，你这个其实是两个问题，我得接阿土仔了，要是今天晚上他乖的话，我来给设计个科学的实验

笑嘻嘻 · Post by **笑嘻嘻** » 2009-11-10 17:03

也许应该先界定一下美貌的power 有多大，跟其它的条件比：财富、才干（会演讲、会唱歌、会跳舞、体育特好）、特别有charm，等等。我很 nerd 地听见科学实验就来劲儿了。

Jun · Post by **Jun** » 2009-11-10 17:44

嗯，我跟笑嘻嘻不约而同地想到了这个问题。其实美貌只是各种魅力吸引中的一个，对一个人的性格和心理的形成也只是一小部分的作用。不过其他方面的魅力有不少是需要交流了、经过大脑皮层的 process，才会感受到，而美貌这东西很直观，冲击力比较大，primitive。

也许美貌带来的后果中有些人得到过人的好处，有些人得到过人的坏处，根据人文和家庭环境状况而有差别。无所谓。我比较感兴趣的是，他们跟周围人的互动对他们的性格心理的形成之中的影响，以及普通相貌的人跟特别美貌的人交流的 pattern，显然不是平常心的过程。

putaopi · Post by **putaopi** » 2009-11-10 18:22

普通美貌跟绝代佳人是两个概念，年轻女孩子懂得打扮，走出去都可以叫美女。可是文章中Sara这种，让医生护士都忘了职业操守，感觉就是倾国倾城的那一类的。

笑嘻嘻 · Post by **笑嘻嘻** » 2009-11-10 18:34

可是，住院护士不是对谁都宝贝、甜心、蜜糖、娃娃地叫？包括90岁的老太太。

Jun · Post by **Jun** » 2009-11-10 19:13

putaopi wrote:普通美貌跟绝代佳人是两个概念，年轻女孩子懂得打扮，走出去都可以叫美女。可是文章中Sara这种，让医生护士都忘了职业操守，感觉就是倾国倾城的那一类的。

可不是？而且还是个女医生哪！

笑嘻嘻 · Post by **笑嘻嘻** » 2009-11-10 20:22

我的反面 argument 是，就算是倾国倾城的也挺多的，张柏芝也没要求自己完美到自杀啊。好莱坞每年都会有一两个在大屏幕上都漂亮得完全没有缺陷的特别年轻的女星，刚开始的时候主演本子不怎么地的少女电影。多数还没熬到成名就先老了，眼看着在担纲大点制作的电影的配角之前就在银幕上老了。大美女明星难道不更加一层名气的压力？可是并没有看出来有多少人有很大完美压力，除了竞争激烈不停地得修自己之外。这个 Sara 的完美压力仅仅来自于美貌吗？清华和北大每年都有青少年因为各种各样不尽如意而自杀。

simonsun · Post by **simonsun** » 2009-11-10 22:21

笑嘻嘻 wrote:可是，住院护士不是对谁都宝贝、甜心、蜜糖、娃娃地叫？包括90岁的老太太。

叫起来让人想死哎

Knowing · Post by **Knowing** » 2009-11-10 22:32

审美经验跟context 和context 带来的期望值有关。同一个人，在电视上出现，是个小明星，一般人会认为她是“正常的美貌”；突然出现在某大学校医院急诊室就是”倾国倾城“。还有那种长相的常见性也很有关。异国情调的容易惊艳。放家乡也就是一普通美女。
而且根据个人经验，刚认识觉得非常非常美的人，时间上了也会审美疲劳，降格为普通美女的。
不过我好像没见过美到一看就喘不过气儿来的美人。

笑嘻嘻 · Post by **笑嘻嘻** » 2009-11-10 22:47

我见过一眼看上去美得让人不敢逼视的美男两粒。一个开一辆特别破的车跟一个如果没他在边上对比着就十足美丽的美女搭配给药厂推销药；另一个在富人的私人飞机场工作。

Jun · Post by **Jun** » 2009-11-11 9:21

很少很少很少见到倾国倾城的美男美女。不过笑嘻嘻在富人飞机场上看见，可见这位帅哥已经被充分利用了。

（药厂推销员也是充分利用）

mirrorflower · Post by **mirrorflower** » 2009-11-11 14:10

叹口气说，美人的环境不同，气质不同，别人要求也不一样——比如我们看到一个美貌的小明星,穿的美然而又时尚乃至有点脱线；也许我们对她的感觉就是：呃，美女，不知道有没有灵魂。不知道在竞争激烈的好莱坞混得出来不。

可是Sara不一样，她家庭显然不错而且是那种受过良好教育的；她自己又是一个straight-A的学生；我们第一面可能就会被她stunning的美貌所震惊；然后又知道她还是straight-A,然后她也许表面看来性格也不错——这个时候所有的感觉就是，perfect.这种对她的微妙反应和期望，是非常非常大的压力。我挺同情她的。——我同情她不是因为我不知道美人可能得到的好处；但是在一个习惯满足别人期望（因为这里面很多也是她开始对自己的期望，内化了）的压力下长大的孩子，是很不容易的。

举一个例子，我自己当然是一个far from perfect的人，但从小是一个模范的学生——在家帮父母干农活干家务；在学校帮老师管课堂；帮同学辅导功课；从来不主动问父母要任何东西（零食玩具之类）。我在别人眼里看到的我的形象，和我自己也想做到的，就是这么一个非常懂事，能干的形象。我还清楚地记得，我要上大学的时候，有个很近的亲戚，做理所当然的样子说，“学费什么的也不同太担心，xx(我的名字）肯定能拿奖学金的。一等奖学金是多少来着？” 我当时心理压力是很大的。大学一开始觉得非常不适应；然后其实整个大学我都非常挣扎，还不知道自己在挣扎什么。用了十多年才慢慢回过味来，慢慢看清楚自己来时的路。（我不是要把自己的大学的失败归结于那么一句评论，就是想表达外来的期许所带来的压力，可以到一个什么程度）

——当然，做一个模范学生有好处么？有的。老师家长对你非常信任；同学也愿意跟你亲近。比如以前我们同学在紧张的高中生涯中想出去玩，本来一个不同意的家长，得知我也要去，立刻就同意了。比如我其实后来才发现我非常不善交际，然而中学时候从来不少朋友。可是这些也不能够write off相应的压力。

那个医生的感想，还有作者自己的“愤怒”，我也经历过。那是在我一个大学同学自杀以后。因为在那之前她给我感觉那么好，长得很美（当然也许不到stunning的地步），成绩不错，据说家庭条件也很好。我很长很长时间（一直到现在，其实），都不能get over这件事。总是觉得：你那么美，你怎么能破坏这种美？——但是也不完全是愤怒，还有心疼，懊恼（没有跟她更接近一点）等等诸多感情。

sigh,这么一篇文章，引起我诸多感触回忆。

笑嘻嘻 · Post by **笑嘻嘻** » 2009-11-11 14:23

哎，我的意思是这种压力不是完全来自于美貌。尤其在青少年期，在大学期间的对期待值的挣扎，可以放到不少例清华北大的自杀学生身上。这些人并不一定十分美丽，但是的确很多都是从小就是模范生。只是美人得到了更多的同情。所以我觉得正文中的医生只把压力归到美丽上并不完全让我信服。

Knowing · Post by **Knowing** » 2009-11-11 14:50

美貌是有效的催化剂。它不能使事情发生，只能促进事情发生。比如你看见个大美女，即使下巴掉地上，魂魄飞天外，也不会主动走上去，掏出五块钱塞在她手里。但是如果该美女走过来，含羞带怯的说：我丢了钱包，你能借我五块钱么？你八成想，哎呀，这么美的女人，怎么会来骗我区区五块钱？然后乖乖掏出来。要是换个丑人这么说，你肯定想，靠，怎么骗子专骗我，我看上去很傻么？

mirrorflower · Post by **mirrorflower** » 2009-11-11 14:53

嗯，这种压力当然不完全来自美貌——比如你某方面特别stunning,别人可能就有更高的期许；但是如果好些方面都stunning,估计那期许就压的死人。——我觉得最关键的是，当事人可能把这种期许内化了，也是自我期许的一部分；在这种内外压力双重夹击之下，特别无法解脱。
（我猜我自己的例子也不是很恰当；我就是想说明我理解的这个Sarah的问题，可能跟期许关系很大。她那种得了STD就要自杀的心理，跟我有一种共鸣——让我想到某个艰难的考试前我宁愿地球毁灭也不想看到可以预料的糟糕的成绩，和随之而来的无穷无尽的羞耻感。）

可是美貌的确是一个非常直观的印象和因素。不管是因为进化还是基因，平常人对美人一般都有很多微妙的期许：比如是不是就不会做什么龌龊的事——尽管这种期许已经被很多流行文化所打破；但是对待像Sarah的这种情况，我怀疑各方面的期许会互相加强。

回到我的同学。其实她倒不是（或者不主要是）因为期许问题自杀的。每个人情况都很复杂。

mirrorflower · Post by **mirrorflower** » 2009-11-11 14:56

Knowing wrote:美貌是有效的催化剂。它不能使事情发生，只能促进事情发生。比如你看见个大美女，即使下巴掉地上，魂魄飞天外，也不会主动走上去，掏出五块钱塞在她手里。但是如果该美女走过来，含羞带怯的说：我丢了钱包，你能借我五块钱么？你八成想，哎呀，这么美的女人，怎么会来骗我区区五块钱？然后乖乖掏出来。要是换个丑人这么说，你肯定想，靠，怎么骗子专骗我，我看上去很傻么？

或者就是，哪怕美女是骗子，我也乐意给她骗。。。

sogno · Post by **sogno** » 2009-11-11 15:28

我来试试解释吧，如果你非常非常美丽，一般来讲男孩或者男人反倒不是太敢approach you.　很简单你首先要问你自己是不是配的上这样漂亮的女朋友，你如果自己不觉得非常出色你反而不会去ask,所以我想这个sara很可能接触到的男孩反而比一般人少。可是在别人的眼里她是不可能没有boyfriend的，这怎么可能呢？她这么漂亮身边怎么可能没人？所以keeping her boy friend反而成了她生活在这样的expection的first priority.她必须要有男朋友，没有就是她自己的失败，所以你真的仔细在她的位置上想想压力还是蛮大的。。。。

Jun · Post by **Jun** » 2009-11-11 15:48

从来不主动问父母要任何东西（零食玩具之类）

哆嗦一下，这是童年不幸福的典型症状。

我不是要言必称“儿童不幸福都是父母的错”哈，而是“小孩子越乖越好”的普遍概念有时候是很错很错的。

Knowing · Post by **Knowing** » 2009-11-11 15:51

不，如何显的approachable跟美貌完全是两门功课。简单的例子是，金发大胸脸上带着天真傻笑，就是梦露那种type , 是显得approachable 的典型。她的美貌绝对不会妨碍异性上前。同样是美人儿的嘉宝，妨碍异性大胆上前的，并不是她的美貌，而是她的高大冷淡北欧气质。

mirrorflower · Post by **mirrorflower** » 2009-11-11 16:07

Jun wrote:
哆嗦一下，这是童年不幸福的典型症状。

嘿嘿。我也是很晚才意识到我童年称不上正常——但是你要知道当时如果已经把“懂事”这种标准内化，我真的觉得父母的夸赞别人的（对我父母的）羡慕已经让我很幸福了。——如果用一个简单的量表，没准那时那刻我真的是幸福的。所以说我觉得怎么判断童年幸福与否也不好说——以那一刻孩子的感觉为准？以日后人生幸福或者成功与否为准？以靠谱的科学分析为准？（比如我又想起stumbling on happiness--acknowledgement to Jun, 我是看了你的介绍才去看的那本书——那本书说养孩子的父母如果当时measure是很stressful的，可是我想他们回想的时刻里总是还觉得养孩子有很多很美好的有重大幸福感的时刻，而他们回想的那一刻的幸福感是真实的；所以我总觉得幸福感这件事情是无法追求和反复判断的——比如养孩子的幸福感，你是要把每天每天的量化结果求和？加权平均？这种感觉巨大幸福感的权重要给多大？取哪个时间短的？孩子0-18岁？直到你死？）

Jun · Post by **Jun** » 2009-11-11 16:35

幸福是没有定义的。我的意见是， It's a problem if it's a problem for you. 当事人信宗教也好，信 voodoo 也好，拜金也好，工作狂也好，不婚不育也好，赌博嫖妓也好，躲在深山老林里几十年不见人也好，如果当事人觉得很好，没有问题，心情舒畅安宁，自得其乐，那就好，旁人无需指手画脚。

幸福不幸福，日子过得是战战兢兢还是平静舒坦，晚上是否睡得安稳，是天天玩不够还是人生不堪重负，当事人自己心里最清楚，根本不需要拿别人的标准来衡量。就好象脚丫子穿在鞋里，别人大叫好漂亮，痛不痛却只有它自己清楚，被别人叫好的快感是否抵消脚丫子的痛，每个人的尺度不同，你觉得值就值，你觉得不值就不值。完全是主观的。

所以有些很美或者“条件很好”的人为什么会自杀？连他们那么幸运的人都要自杀，别人处境比他们更糟怎么能活下去？因为他们自己觉得脚丫子痛得受不了了，外界的任何赞美鼓励他们继续把这双鞋穿下去都是 irrelevant 。只不过自杀是个错误的选择，把鞋脱了才是正确的选择，在冲动之下做出了错误的判断，以为光脚走路比死还可怕，其实连死都不怕，光着两片脚丫子有啥大不了？

笑嘻嘻 · Post by **笑嘻嘻** » 2009-11-11 16:39

是啊，不过也的确不能否认社会的人经常能在跟邻居的比较中得到满足感。

Jun · Post by **Jun** » 2009-11-11 16:46

笑嘻嘻 wrote:是啊，不过也的确不能否认社会的人经常能在跟邻居的比较中得到满足感。

If it's not a problem, it's not a problem. 就好象喝很多酒的人，如果不觉得有什么不良后果，就无需治疗。

mirrorflower · Post by **mirrorflower** » 2009-11-11 16:51

Jun，我倒不是要为我童年的幸福辩解。那也没什么意义。我只想探讨一下幸福感之类的话题。我的意思是，我觉得更大的问题是如果你内化外在的标准——比如说你脚丫子好疼，可是你觉得漂亮更重要——已经不仅仅是为了听到别人的赞美，而是你内化了这种对漂亮的追求——于是你就继续穿着。从那一刻的幸福感上来说，你也许是幸福的；可是从长远来说，你的脚丫子可能报废掉。到那个时候大概痛苦更深：放弃什么呢？放弃脚？放弃漂亮？

从这个意义上说，我的童年肯定对我后来的挫败感有很大的影响。不过我只是不觉得它跟我的童年的幸福感直接相关。当然它影响了我大学以及以后那一段时间的幸福感，这是毋庸置疑的。但是换一个童年，换一个人生，我是不是就会有比较多的幸福感？我也不知道。所以我虽然很乐意找到了自己这样那样纠结的原因，却不是要从消除或者对抗过去，或者造成我的过去的人（我父母？），身上去寻回幸福感。那样估计也不会有效。

笑嘻嘻 · Post by **笑嘻嘻** » 2009-11-11 16:54

安慰一下镜花。过去的反正你已经战胜了，展望未来更有意思些。

Jun · Post by **Jun** » 2009-11-11 16:55

mirrorflower wrote:我觉得更大的问题是如果你内化外在的标准——比如说你脚丫子好疼，可是你觉得漂亮更重要——已经不仅仅是为了听到别人的赞美，而是你内化了这种对漂亮的追求——于是你就继续穿着。从那一刻的幸福感上来说，你也许是幸福的；可是从长远来说，你的脚丫子可能报废掉。到那个时候大概痛苦更深：放弃什么呢？放弃脚？放弃漂亮？

你肯定继续穿着痛鞋的原因是“我爱漂亮，漂亮更重要”，而不是对光脚的恐惧感？继续穿着带来的那一刻不是幸福感，而是暂时抵抗了恐惧的安全感。

mirrorflower · Post by **mirrorflower** » 2009-11-11 16:58

Jun wrote:
笑嘻嘻 wrote:是啊，不过也的确不能否认社会的人经常能在跟邻居的比较中得到满足感。
If it's not a problem, it's not a problem. 就好象喝很多酒的人，如果不觉得有什么不良后果，就无需治疗。

嗯，也许是不用治疗；也许是等到了未来成了当事人的问题的时候，去治疗。

我常常想，也许是应该让当事人明白可能的consequence,和他这么选择和行为的原因。不是说，你应该怎么做；而是说，让我们看看你为什么会这么做，这么做可能未来会有什么结果？（当然这两个问题的答案都不会是固定的，唯一的）。怎么做，当然还是每个人自己的选择。他觉得现在喝酒不是问题，那就喝吧；given他知道他为什么要喝，以及可能的后果。我觉得那样他可能也就不会有很多挣扎：接受该行为是自己的一部分，而不是某个自己不了解的问题。

mirrorflower · Post by **mirrorflower** » 2009-11-11 16:59

笑嘻嘻 wrote:安慰一下镜花。过去的反正你已经战胜了，展望未来更有意思些。

我觉得我不是战胜了，我是接受和了解了。

未来也是虚幻的呀，stumbling on happiness告诉我们说