十分抱歉,我对这一句产生了一些不良联想.Knowing wrote:二十分钟一批泡芙烤好，美貌的日本妞在那里一个一个挤奶油
艺妓回忆录
Merchandise tie-ins with new movies is nothing new. Just like Star Wars released with all the action figures and video games. Marketing ploy.
And funny thing is, Kurosawa's movies frequently have western roots. He was into hard-boiled detective stories early on and later adapted Shakespeare. There is nothing particularly Japanese about his stories except the packaging...
And funny thing is, Kurosawa's movies frequently have western roots. He was into hard-boiled detective stories early on and later adapted Shakespeare. There is nothing particularly Japanese about his stories except the packaging...
我求知若渴的google着：
发现凡高不是雅典娜一样生下来就全副武装，我很欣慰。
edited:
图改了。画该是在法国画的，说是照着巴黎杂志。是很鲜艳，特别跟原画对照。那些大花边框不过网上的图不好作准 sigh
查到凡高还画过好些个花瓶静物，更欣慰了。
凡・高对浮世绘的喜爱, 始于安特卫普时期(比利时)。1885年给提奥的437信中说:"我的画室还不错, 整个墙壁上贴满了日本版画, 所以很快乐。"到巴黎以后, 于唐居伊老爹处, 看到更多的日本版画。宾格画廊是当时巴黎的"日本趣味"中心, 专门收藏浮世绘, 约有一万多张, 凡・高屡次前往观赏, 并一张张加以研究。
浮世绘仿作: 雨中的桥 (歌川广重摹作)"巴黎画报"杂志在1886年日本特集的封面上刊载了英泉的《花魁》。梵高将复写纸放在这幅画上描轮廓，加宽外框，并以油彩描绘。这幅画后来还出现在《唐基老爷》的背景中，可见梵高特别喜欢这幅画。
发现凡高不是雅典娜一样生下来就全副武装，我很欣慰。
edited:
图改了。画该是在法国画的，说是照着巴黎杂志。是很鲜艳，特别跟原画对照。那些大花边框
不过网上的图不好作准 sigh查到凡高还画过好些个花瓶静物，更欣慰了。
Last edited by 密斯张三 on 2005-12-13 18:56, edited 2 times in total.
不知这部戏有没有用京都的风景，那真是非常精致秀丽，非常日本的。然而这种美看多了，就合了张爱玲的话：
张：“啊，我也是！三年前，初次看见他们的木版画，他们的衣料、瓷器，那些天真的、红脸的小兵，还有我们回上海来的船上，那年老的日本水手拿出他三个女儿的照片给我们看；路过台湾，台湾的秀丽的山，浮在海上，像中国的青绿山水画里的，那样的山，想不到，真的有！
日本的风景听说也是这样。船舱的窗户洞里望出去，圆窗户洞，夜里，海弯是蓝灰色的，静静的一只小渔船，点一盏红灯笼……那时候真是如痴如醉地喜欢看呀！”
犭莫：“是的，他们有一种稚气的风韵，非常可爱的。”
张：“对于我，倒不是完全因为他们的稚气。因为我是中国人，喜欢那种古中国的厚道含蓄。他们有一种含蓄的空……”
犭莫：“嗳，好的就是那种空气；譬如说山上有一层银白的雾，雾是美的，然而雾的后面还是有个山在那里。山是真实。他们的雾，后面没有山。”
张：“是的，他们有许多感情都是浮面的。对于他们不熟悉的东西，他们没有感情；对于熟悉的东西，每一样他们都有一个规定的感情――‘应当怎样想’。”
犭莫：“看他们的画，在那圆熟悯丽之中，我总觉得还有更多更多的意思，使人虚心地等待着。可是现在我知道，一眼看到的，就全在那里了。”
转一篇华盛顿邮报的文章。
不真实的粗节细节，本来都是故意的，不是不懂。
一方面我明白他们为什么这么拍，如果不美国化，如果很真实，更加没有人要看了，本来就是很沉闷的很难被现代人理解的东西。
另一方面还是很讨厌好莱坞动不动就“拿来”，想当然耳地改掉，为己所用。过去就听说有人管Disney的动画片叫文化帝国主义(cultural imperialism)。到底是起了教育普及还是混淆视听的作用？如果不想好好地，严肃严谨地介绍大家不懂的知识，不如干脆别去碰它，leave it alone。拿出很有权威的样子胡说八道，比什么都不说还可怕些，根本误导别人。
不真实的粗节细节，本来都是故意的，不是不懂。
一方面我明白他们为什么这么拍，如果不美国化，如果很真实，更加没有人要看了，本来就是很沉闷的很难被现代人理解的东西。
另一方面还是很讨厌好莱坞动不动就“拿来”，想当然耳地改掉，为己所用。过去就听说有人管Disney的动画片叫文化帝国主义(cultural imperialism)。到底是起了教育普及还是混淆视听的作用？如果不想好好地，严肃严谨地介绍大家不懂的知识，不如干脆别去碰它，leave it alone。拿出很有权威的样子胡说八道，比什么都不说还可怕些，根本误导别人。
Hollywood's Faulty 'Memoirs'
Experts on Japanese Tradition Are Bedeviled by Film's Details
By Sarah Kaufman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, December 15, 2005; C01
Shizumi Manale is kneeling in a sea of brilliant silk. Yards and yards of costly hand-tinted and embroidered kimonos are spread before her on tatami mats. She has been unfolding them with devotional care; a flick of her wrists sends the fabric flowing across the floor. Even to an inexpert eye, the craftsmanship is obvious: One kimono of subtly textured ink-black is bursting with bright chrysanthemums edged in gold thread. Others in pastel shades feature patterns with delicately blurred outlines, as if the images were rising up from under water.
Shizumi picks up a corner, fondling its rose-petal softness. "You see -- this is art," she says quietly. "It really is like a living thing. It's what we call the power of kimono.
"This is what Rob Marshall does not understand."
The quality and style of the kimono is just one element of Japanese culture that Marshall overlooks in his film "Memoirs of a Geisha," Shizumi says. The Osaka-raised dancer also faults the director for including inaccurate versions of traditional geisha dancing and for failing to convey the studied artistry that geisha embodied in the 1930s and '40s, when the film is set.
The movie "has nothing to do with geisha in Kyoto," where Arthur Golden's best-selling novel of the same name was set, Shizumi says. "It's very rude to us. To us, the world of geisha is our culture."
Of course, this isn't the first time complaints have been raised about Hollywood's portrayal of a specific culture or time period. The industry's track record of faltering on historical, political, ethnic and other levels is long and varied. But for Shizumi and two Japanese artists who worked on the film, the disappointment at seeing their culture mishandled registers on a personal level. For those who carry that heritage close to their hearts, "Memoirs of a Geisha" is a missed opportunity.
Geisha life cuts close to the bone for Shizumi. When she was 15, she discovered a photo of her father and a geisha he had taken as his mistress. In a fit of shame and anger, she says, she tore it up. Shizumi says her attitude toward geisha changed when she found out that the mother of a beloved great-aunt had been a geisha. Her curiosity piqued, Shizumi immersed herself in geisha history, eventually producing a documentary on the elusive women.
Geisha have been grievously misconstrued in the West, she says. They were never prostitutes, though love affairs did happen. Above all, geisha were artists and entertainers, valued for their ability "to make the atmosphere softer, not so tense" at the teahouses where the wealthiest businessmen went to unwind after work. In the age before karaoke, teahouses were the after-hours hot spots for the corporate elite. "Men dreamed about it, to have a geisha pouring their sake," Shizumi says.
Shizumi has devoted herself to geisha arts, particularly traditional dance, which she has performed throughout the Washington area for years, and the tea ceremony. She has dedicated a room overlooking the back yard of her Silver Spring house to the meditative tea ritual. The room is peaceful and spare, like a temple; so quiet you can hear the gurgling of a little waterfall spilling into a pond outside. It is here, after sipping bowls of frothy green tea with a visitor, that Shizumi is taking some of her best kimonos out of their rice-paper wrapping. These are what a geisha would wear, she says; some of them are signed by their creators and cost more than $10,000. The one she is wearing is what she calls her "casual" kimono, for hanging around the house. She has kimonos for many occasions, including ones to wear for a dance rehearsal.
"Practice is respect; it's sacred," she says. "Even in practice you wear a nice cotton kimono. It's very important."
In his novel, Golden did a fine job of capturing the details and rituals of geisha life, she says. But though Shizumi praises the handsome settings of the film, she says it misses several key points. In a scene of the geisha rehearsing a dance, the actors are wearing loose garments "like a bathrobe." And many of the formal kimonos look too flimsy, lacking heft and luxurious details.
Nor does the dancing reflect the stillness and subtlety of traditional geisha dance, she says, particularly the solo for the central character Sayuri, an apprentice geisha who dons eight-inch high zori -- think lacquered platform flip-flops -- and a thin white gown and whips herself into a frenzied expressionistic dance under a cascade of confetti.
Marshall, who directed "Chicago" to a best picture Oscar -- and, for good or ill, pioneered making movie musicals without serious dancers in the lead roles -- makes no apologies for his unorthodox approach in "Geisha." "It was never my intention to do a documentary version of the book," he says by phone on his way to Rome for the film's premiere there. "What was interesting was doing an impression of this world."
He says his research was extensive. "I could write a thesis about the geisha world in great detail." And armed with the facts, he felt free to break a few rules. As in, for example, Sayuri's solo dance.
"I serve the story," Marshall says. "That's my job. So dance needs to do more than it does in the book." Sayuri's solo "needed to be an emotional dance and reflect her pain at not being able to express her love. I needed to create a dance that will make us feel for her. That's how it works."
Choreographer John DeLuca, who worked with Marshall on "Chicago," says it was those precarious wooden shoes, worn by courtesans (already a detail sure to inflame geisha purists), that inspired the dance: "I thought, 'God, I've got to use those shoes.' " Though based on kabuki, the solo sprang largely from his imagination.
"We had our experts on the set applauding every step of the way," DeLuca says. "They knew what we were going for. We tried to honor their culture as best we could."
Shizumi was approached, in fact, to be one of those experts. She flew to California for an interview as a dance consultant, and was asked to audition for a dancing part. She wore her best summer-weight kimono to the audition and carried herself, she says, with the self-effacing grace that a true geisha might possess. But she was alarmed by the speeded-up tempo of the music and the Broadway-style movement demands. Can you throw the fan higher? she was asked.
"We Japanese don't do it that way," she replied. Welcome to Hollywood, she was told.
Eventually, she says, she was offered a part, but her mother fell ill and she felt she had to go to Japan.
Shizumi is not alone in thinking the film takes needless liberties. Los Angeles-based musician Masakazu Yoshizawa is a veteran of the movie industry, having worked on the soundtracks of dozens of films, including "The Last Samurai" and "Jurassic Park." Working on "Memoirs of a Geisha," he said, amounted to a series of arguments with Marshall, culminating in failed efforts to talk the director out of using aggressive, choppy music from northern Japan to set the tone for the cultured city of Kyoto, home of the most exclusive geisha.
But the film does not take place in Kyoto, Yoshizawa says Marshall told him.
This is not Kyoto? the musician asked.
This is an imaginary city, he says Marshall replied.
Yoshizawa says he was dumbfounded by the choice to remove the story from its origins in Kyoto, for 1,200 years the Japanese capital, as famed for the elegance of its shamizen music as it is for the refinement of its geisha.
The artistry of the time period is largely absent from the film, says Yoshiko Wada, a Berkeley, Calif.,-based textile expert who was an assistant to costume designer Colleen Atwood.
The geisha world "had so much to do with music, dance and textiles," says Wada, who attended the Kyoto City University of Arts and curated a kimono exhibit at the Textile Museum here some years ago. The kimono and the obi -- the extraordinarily long, wide sash used to tie it -- "was one of the most important things, showing their taste, their status in society, their age, everything. . . . This film could have been made very opulent and meshed with that." But instead, she says, "they have kind of trashed it."
Wada describes the brocade on an obi worn by Sayuri at a key moment in the film. There was a waterfall and rocks -- so far so good. But there were also irises. "The iris is stretching it," Wada says. "We don't see the iris growing by a waterfall. It grows in still water."
The wave pattern for the water was wrong, too. It was a copy of a typical Japanese pattern used for ocean waves, says Wada, not for the kind of splashy action you would see around a cascade.
Not in a million years would a Western eye notice these things. So what's the big deal?
Wada laughs in acknowledgment. Yet that's why she was dismayed that her advice was not heeded. "All these things are important," she says. "We look at them and think it just looks strange." Atwood was not available for comment.
These may seem like minor matters, involving more bruised feelings than gross violations. But when it is your own heritage on the screen, the hurt cuts deeper.
"What if you saw an American flag that only had 42 stars? It's that important," says Sheridan Prasso, an Asia scholar and author of "The Asian Mystique: Dragon Ladies, Geisha Girls, & Our Fantasies of the Exotic Orient." Prasso also faults the casting of two Chinese actresses, Ziyi Zhang and Gong Li, and a Malaysian-born actress who has made her career in Chinese films, Michelle Yeoh, as the main Japanese characters. "It's only one step up from the use of Hollywood actors in yellowface that Hollywood used to do 50 years ago."
The casting has roused some degree of Chinese ire as well. Japan's English-language Mainichi Daily News reports that in a climate of ongoing Chinese-Japanese tension, the Chinese actors have been criticized in their homeland for portraying "an outlet for Japanese desires," as one observer put it.
In Japan, the film debuted last weekend as the fourth most popular nationwide. Criticisms seemed largely muted from filmgoers and critics.
"My concern before I saw the film was whether or not it would end up as a visual guidebook of Japan for foreign tourists; you know, all shots of Mount Fuji and geisha," said Yukichi Shinada, the noted Japanese film critic. "But the film did not go in that direction. I enjoyed the beautiful images and scenes for their cinematic pleasure. The fact that the Chinese actresses were there wasn't particularly troubling -- especially because they mostly spoke English."
Yet, as when Golden's book became a worldwide hit, a certain level of disgruntlement could be heard from Japan's geisha. A handful of current geisha offered widely quoted criticisms to the local and foreign press, expressing distaste for the movie's lack of precision, particularly regarding the dance scenes and kimonos.
To all but a small percentage of Japanese people, the world of the geisha is as unknown as it is to most foreigners. Many seem to view "Memoirs of a Geisha" as a sort of movie version of a California roll -- an American take on Japanese tradition that, while hardly authentic, doesn't taste all that bad.
To be sure, Hollywood has an especially bad record in terms of casting foreigners, says David Thomson, the author of several books about moviemaking, including "The Whole Equation: A History of Hollywood." Take Anthony Quinn, of Irish and Mexican descent, who over his career played Arabs, Eskimos, Spaniards and Greeks. Or Omar Sharif, an Egyptian, who played a Russian in "Doctor Zhivago."
"In the old days, if you were a foreigner you could play any foreign part, but it's scandalous today," says Thomson. "What it means is that we haven't bothered to think about this character seriously."
However, Marshall sees himself as carrying on Hollywood's practice of "nontraditional" casting.
The examples he cites, coincidentally, are the same ones that Thomson brought up as representing an outmoded all-foreigners-are-alike approach: Quinn as "Zorba." And Sharif as a Russian.
"I cast the best actors for the roles," he says. "It's a very simple philosophy." Defending his hiring of Zhang to star as Sayuri, he says she has done "a whole hair campaign in Japan -- a big shampoo ad -- and that's nice, but honestly I only think about who can bring this character to life."
Marshall says he used a similar approach to pre- and post-World War II Japan as he did with the 1920s setting for "Chicago." "Certainly in Chicago, women didn't dance like that and didn't dress like that," he said.
By the same token, "Geisha" "is an impressionistic painting of the geisha world," Marshall says. "We took it a step further. As an artist, that's what I do."
Shizumi says she doesn't mind that Marshall chose to construe a fictional geisha district. The error, she says, is in not making that clear to an audience who will likely walk away from the film thinking they have just seen how real geisha lived.
"My concern is, if they want to create an imaginary world they should have done it completely," she says. Instead, the kimonos are almost traditional, but not quite. And the dancing is also almost-but-not-quite right. "To me, it's just sloppy," she says.
"The spirit of geisha is not there," she says. "In 'The Last Samurai,' many things were not accurate, but the spirit of the samurai was there. So I can appreciate it. But here you don't get the spirit of the high-class geisha -- the pride and elegance and . . . " She pauses, searching for the words. She reflects on her lovely kimonos. What was missing from the film, she says, was "the tranquillity of subtlety with beauty."
Staff writer Anthony Faiola in Tokyo contributed to this article.
© 2005 The Washington Post Company
Last edited by Jun on 2005-12-15 9:33, edited 1 time in total.
That is exactly the point.These may seem like minor matters, involving more bruised feelings than gross violations. But when it is your own heritage on the screen, the hurt cuts deeper.
But here you don't get the spirit of the high-class geisha -- the pride and elegance and . . . " She pauses, searching for the words. She reflects on her lovely kimonos. What was missing from the film, she says, was "the tranquillity of subtlety with beauty."
Oh well, had Rob Marshall made an intriguing story out of the book, I might not mind his 'artistic inaccurate impression of geisha culture'. But the story is bad, bad and B.A.D.
I am glad I am not a Japanses culture expert, and was able to enjoy the movie visually, completely unaware of flimsy kimonos and wrong water pattern.
Last but not least, a bit Japanese bashing. $10,000 for a kimono? Gees, I know where the obssession with LV come from. It is rooted deeply in there culture.
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The experts are talking about designer Geishas, Rob Marshall dumbs it down for the mass.
I am also glad that this ain't my culture. Just the other day someone opened a bottle of wine and boasted it is lilke a baby Brunello. I went on and on about how it's a cheap imitation that has no elegance no power, no subtlety of a true Brunello. It's not unlike what this lady is saying about kimono. It's about the purity of a culture, of an experience.
I am also glad that this ain't my culture. Just the other day someone opened a bottle of wine and boasted it is lilke a baby Brunello. I went on and on about how it's a cheap imitation that has no elegance no power, no subtlety of a true Brunello. It's not unlike what this lady is saying about kimono. It's about the purity of a culture, of an experience.
Come to think of it, you are right. Rob Marshall isn't really offending the mainstream Japanese culture. If Westerners don't see what's wrong with the pattern on that obi, I doubt a 20-year-old bleached blond Japanese could tell either. The only one offended is the very very small subculture of Geishas. Still that doesn't lighten the offense.
It's like when Brown made all those errors in the Da Vinci Code. The general masses have no problem with it, the people who are really offended are the art historians and Catholic scholars. Subcultures again...
I am almost tempted to say that subcultures are always at odds with the mainstream.
It's like when Brown made all those errors in the Da Vinci Code. The general masses have no problem with it, the people who are really offended are the art historians and Catholic scholars. Subcultures again...
I am almost tempted to say that subcultures are always at odds with the mainstream.
"high-class geisha -- the pride and elegance and ...."
blahblahblah. I still don't get it. Why do those Japanese are so proud of it? No matter how much so-called pride and elegance geisha carry they are still high-end prostitues.
If that's culture, it is really sick. Now I understand why asian men go to Tokyo for AV. I guess sex for money is taken for granted as long as the transaction is packaged very well.
blahblahblah. I still don't get it. Why do those Japanese are so proud of it? No matter how much so-called pride and elegance geisha carry they are still high-end prostitues.
If that's culture, it is really sick. Now I understand why asian men go to Tokyo for AV. I guess sex for money is taken for granted as long as the transaction is packaged very well.
中国所谓的卖艺不卖身的名妓们对自己的处境地位是非常看不起的，以托身良人为理想归宿。历史上的董小宛嫁了冒辟疆后，只是一个小妾的地位，已经感恩戴德，为冒家为奴为仆。现代人想法自然是烂漫得很，一看到古时名妓们能琴棋书画，受的教育比普通妇女多就全然不记得以当时社会对女人的要求，这样的所谓教育对她们来说除了多些取悦男人的手段，对她们社会地位没有任何作用。古代数得出名字的几个能琴棋书画的名妓下场都颇为凄凉。她们的能琴棋书画和现代女性能受教育自立没有任何关系。社会对妓女的态度，我还真没觉得古今有不同。它存在是一回事，要人非得说它艺术，幽雅，我觉得纯粹是自欺欺人。Jun wrote:古代的名妓不也是有号称“卖艺不卖身”的吗？或者掉过来说，古代名妓不经常是因为才艺而出名，甚至流芳百世的吗？李白杜甫白居易苏东坡等等等等，谁没养过个把相好的？过去卖淫是合法生意，社会对妓女的态度也跟现在不同，艺妓似乎从本质上跟唐朝的机制也没啥太大不同。很感慨地看到说女人当艺妓倒能琴棋书画，受的教育比普通妇女多多了。这不是跟中国古代的状况一样？当然妓女也分高层底层的，底层妓女就惨多了。现在社会基本没有高级妓女了，妇女都能广泛受教育了，底层妓女还是到处都是。
Of course not. Except that both groups are educated. But beyond that there is no similarities.她们的能琴棋书画和现代女性能受教育自立没有任何关系。
Although for a long time before the 60s women went to college, then got married, then became stay-at-home housewives. Was that education somewhat connected with increasing one's appeal to men?
From NYTimes:
Is it that bad or the reviewer never listened to anyone with an accent speak English?But even the formidable Ms. Gong cannot surmount the ruinous decision to have her and Ms. Zhang, along with the poorly used Mr. Yakusho, deliver their lines in vaguely British-sounding English that imparts an unnatural halting quality to much of their dialogue. The. Result. Is. That. Each. Word. Of. Dialogue. Sounds. As. If. It. Were. Punctuated. By. A. Full. Stop. Which. Robs. The. Language. Of. Its. Watery. Flow. And. Breath. Of. Real. Life. Even. As. It. Also. Gives. New. Meaning. To. The. Definition. Of. The. Period. Movie.
Exactly.karen wrote:Yeah, it even bothers me when the ones who supposedly 卖艺不卖身call themselves artists. There is no freedom and no creativity in the types of art they perform. The audience and the platform are both limited. Craftmen is a more appropriate term. What they do is practicing the craft of pleasing men.
well, (regarding the accent issue), i have to say that i fully agree with the critic even without having ever watched the movie. the hongkongese mandarin in "crouching tiger, hidden dragon" was my worst nightware. having an accent as an integral part of the movie is entirely different from being distracted at all times by poorly delivered lines.
Now that happy moment between the time the lie is told and when it is found out.
我同意Roger Ebert的说法：
I know, a geisha is not technically a prostitute. Here is a useful rule: Anyone who is "not technically a prostitute" is a prostitute. As dear old Henry Togna, proprietor of the Eyrie Mansion in London, used to cackle while describing to me his friend the Duchess of Duke Street, "Sex for cash, m'dear. That's my definition."
Is the transaction elevated if there is very little sex, a lot of cash, and the prostitute gets hardly any of either? Hard to say. Certainly the traditions of the geisha house are culturally fascinating in their own right. But if this movie had been set in the West, it would be perceived as about children sold into prostitution, and that is not nearly as wonderful as "being raised as a geisha."
如果一个人在卖身的同时也卖艺，我们可以因为TA卖身而否定TA也在卖艺吗？我们可以因为这个“艺”本身因为跟prostitution结合而否定其“艺”的性质吗？
我并不是为艺妓行业的道德立场辩护，但我看不出这一行跟中国古代的高级妓女的行当，甚至不那么古代时候的梨园戏曲行业有什么本质的差别。在漫长的中国历史上，戏子的社会地位跟妓女有多大差别？实际上，那时凡是“抛头露面”靠工作谋生的未婚女性都有时刻被迫(这个“迫”也未必是physical force, 也可能是经济压力)跟男顾客发生性关系用来交换XXX的处境。除非她已经嫁了人，隶属于一个男人，那么其他男人就不方便挑战这个男人的地位和尊严(除非挑战者比丈夫的社会经济地位高很多)。
对prostitution的道德批判是一回事，我在原则上并不支持妓女行业。但是艺术跟道德不是同步的。腐败，可憎的道德未必不能跟艺术并存 (我这里也未必是在为茶道，艺妓的舞蹈等等的艺术价值辩护--我根本不懂)。仅仅因为艺术家靠卖淫为生，不见得TA的艺术就没有价值。但是我同意Karen的观点中的一个说法：如果这个艺术追求的最终目的是取悦顾客的性要求，其creativity肯定受到局限。
在“旧社会”，妓女跟男戏子的社会地位和处境有没有很大差别？
我想起红楼梦里关于尤三姐的那段。柳湘莲可以说是个pimp，给贾家各个公子提供男孩子的。他看不起尤三姐，认为她不够贞洁，是不是？一个拉皮条的倒嫌大户人家里庶出的女儿(是不是？)不够贞洁，我
。大户人家的女儿的地位还不如一个戏子，凭什么？只因为她是女人而他是男人。哈。尤三姐自杀，可以算是因为受到柳湘莲的羞辱，她的cousins怎么替她报仇呢？NOTHING，如果我没记错的话，宝玉等人责备他几句就完了，也没跟他翻脸。 
我并不是为艺妓行业的道德立场辩护，但我看不出这一行跟中国古代的高级妓女的行当，甚至不那么古代时候的梨园戏曲行业有什么本质的差别。在漫长的中国历史上，戏子的社会地位跟妓女有多大差别？实际上，那时凡是“抛头露面”靠工作谋生的未婚女性都有时刻被迫(这个“迫”也未必是physical force, 也可能是经济压力)跟男顾客发生性关系用来交换XXX的处境。除非她已经嫁了人，隶属于一个男人，那么其他男人就不方便挑战这个男人的地位和尊严(除非挑战者比丈夫的社会经济地位高很多)。
对prostitution的道德批判是一回事，我在原则上并不支持妓女行业。但是艺术跟道德不是同步的。腐败，可憎的道德未必不能跟艺术并存 (我这里也未必是在为茶道，艺妓的舞蹈等等的艺术价值辩护--我根本不懂)。仅仅因为艺术家靠卖淫为生，不见得TA的艺术就没有价值。但是我同意Karen的观点中的一个说法：如果这个艺术追求的最终目的是取悦顾客的性要求，其creativity肯定受到局限。
在“旧社会”，妓女跟男戏子的社会地位和处境有没有很大差别？
我想起红楼梦里关于尤三姐的那段。柳湘莲可以说是个pimp，给贾家各个公子提供男孩子的。他看不起尤三姐，认为她不够贞洁，是不是？一个拉皮条的倒嫌大户人家里庶出的女儿(是不是？)不够贞洁，我
。大户人家的女儿的地位还不如一个戏子，凭什么？只因为她是女人而他是男人。哈。尤三姐自杀，可以算是因为受到柳湘莲的羞辱，她的cousins怎么替她报仇呢？NOTHING，如果我没记错的话，宝玉等人责备他几句就完了，也没跟他翻脸。 这点我同意，不能因其人废其艺。就好比蔡京的字，赵孟府（字找不到，同音）的画，不能因其人操守否定他们的艺术成就。Jun wrote:如果一个人在卖身的同时也卖艺，我们可以因为TA卖身而否定TA也在卖艺吗？我们可以因为这个“艺”本身因为跟prostitution结合而否定其“艺”的性质吗？
我并不是为艺妓行业的道德立场辩护，但我看不出这一行跟中国古代的高级妓女的行当，甚至不那么古代时候的梨园戏曲行业有什么本质的差别。在漫长的中国历史上，戏子的社会地位跟妓女有多大差别？实际上，那时凡是“抛头露面”靠工作谋生的未婚女性都有时刻被迫(这个“迫”也未必是physical force, 也可能是经济压力)跟男顾客发生性关系用来交换XXX的处境。除非她已经嫁了人，隶属于一个男人，那么其他男人就不方便挑战这个男人的地位和尊严(除非挑战者比丈夫的社会经济地位高很多)。
对prostitution的道德批判是一回事，我在原则上并不支持妓女行业。但是艺术跟道德不是同步的。腐败，可憎的道德未必不能跟艺术并存 (我这里也未必是在为茶道，艺妓的舞蹈等等的艺术价值辩护--我根本不懂)。仅仅因为艺术家靠卖淫为生，不见得TA的艺术就没有价值。但是我同意Karen的观点中的一个说法：如果这个艺术追求的最终目的是取悦顾客的性要求，其creativity肯定受到局限。
在“旧社会”，妓女跟男戏子的社会地位和处境有没有很大差别？
我想起红楼梦里关于尤三姐的那段。柳湘莲可以说是个pimp，给贾家各个公子提供男孩子的。他看不起尤三姐，认为她不够贞洁，是不是？一个拉皮条的倒嫌大户人家里庶出的女儿(是不是？)不够贞洁，我
其他不敢苟同。geisha这个职业，可能我了解不多，就连引文里所谓的专家们五非也是在连篇累牍的说和服多么的值钱，多么的精美，看不到所谓的艺，至少是普通人能接触到，能欣赏的艺。这个职业的本身就注定了是为有钱男人贴身定作的艺。真把geisha拿给大众看，就好像LV的包在秀水街（借用kowning妙语）甩卖，那些所谓的专家们引以自豪的矜贵荡然无存后，我很怀疑他们还有什么兴趣。geisha的吸引在与play hard to get，非常迎合男性的征服欲和成就感。中国古代的所谓名妓们的教育也为此。他们的才艺流传下来也无非是给风流才子们多了一段佳话。无论诗书棋画，偶有被吹捧的作品存世，也很平庸。倒是许多士大夫们的妻女们，精品颇多，水准不下须眉。教育可不止是名妓们的专利。
再说，妓女和梨园戏子有太大不同。前者所操之艺为的是吸引有钱的性交易顾客，后者一为谋生，唱戏就如同社会上其他当时被看成低贱的职业一样，二是，这个行业是以艺术水准来划分低下，被包养的戏子在梨园里地位低下，遭人鄙视。所以“霸王别姬”出来后，京剧名角都非常愤怒。我很理解他们的愤怒。在有等级的社会，底层的人，稍有姿色才艺面临着诱惑，堕落，各行各业都有。能不能就说这些行业也能等同于娼妓呢？所以一旦这种等级被取消，梨园艺人们比以前更受尊重，因为他们的艺术和艺术操受。可是无论古今，我可不见妓女们，包括所谓的名妓们的地位有多大变化。
柳湘莲尤三姐，不幸是我最喜欢的人物之二。其实都是一路人，出身一般，靠姿色在富贵圈子里混，被侮辱被损害不甘心又无法自拔。所以一旦发现自己被对方误解或误解了对方，双方的反应都差不多。一个自尽，一个出家（所以我不觉得柳是因为三姐肉体不够贞结而毁婚）。我到觉得很公平。而且贾涟这花花公子当时是要报官的，反而被她姐姐制止了。我不觉得这是男女的区别，而是社会等级的悲剧。
贾珍老婆尤氏出身非常一般，所以在东府没什么地位。她的两个妹妹和她没有任何血缘关系，是她后母再嫁时带来的（由此可见尤氏出身）。奇怪的是，也不见作者怎么强调尤氏的姿色。所以我揣测，纯粹是贾珍为了自己胡来娶来作摆设的。笑嘻嘻 wrote:柳湘莲看不上尤三姐，是因为尤三姐的确是跟贾家的男人发生性关系的。大概是换得了些物质照顾。
她两个妹妹和贾珍父子应该都有肉体关系。据三姐说是开始时年幼不懂事受了诱惑，后来成年了知道走错了路却又无法摆脱。所以才有不嫁则已，否则一定要称心之说。三姐和柳湘莲都是自己不干净，对对方才艺人品却要求甚高之人。当然，一个人内心怎样在那样的环境里是很难从行为上看出来的。所以三姐被误解为风尘中人，自甘堕落是必然的。
搁今天早被放进Law and Order: SVU里面去了。这明明是强奸幼女，child sexual abuse。How horrible. How twisted. How evil.她两个妹妹和贾珍父子应该都有肉体关系。据三姐说是开始时年幼不懂事受了诱惑，后来成年了知道走错了路却又无法摆脱。所以才有不嫁则已，否则一定要称心之说。三姐和柳湘莲都是自己不干净，对对方才艺人品却要求甚高之人。当然，一个人内心怎样在那样的环境里是很难从行为上看出来的。所以三姐被误解为风尘中人，自甘堕落是必然的。
但是今天看来十分BT的事情，那时候的道德标准未必如此。现代人在不了解历史和社会背景的情况下，读水浒和红楼梦也会被其BT震惊。
Good thing I never actually read 红楼梦 much.I am always intrigued by the age issue. It looks like people got married at about 15 or even younger at that time and usually had their first child around 18. How could a child at such age get mature physically and psychologically?Jun wrote:搁今天早被放进Law and Order: SVU里面去了。这明明是强奸幼女，child sexual abuse。How horrible. How twisted. How evil.她两个妹妹和贾珍父子应该都有肉体关系。据三姐说是开始时年幼不懂事受了诱惑，后来成年了知道走错了路却又无法摆脱。所以才有不嫁则已，否则一定要称心之说。三姐和柳湘莲都是自己不干净，对对方才艺人品却要求甚高之人。当然，一个人内心怎样在那样的环境里是很难从行为上看出来的。所以三姐被误解为风尘中人，自甘堕落是必然的。
但是今天看来十分BT的事情，那时候的道德标准未必如此。现代人在不了解历史和社会背景的情况下，读水浒和红楼梦也会被其BT震惊。
But marriage was not about psychological maturity. Marriage was about financial and social alliance for the rich and powerful, or having a breeding machine for everyone. Also you need a wife to take on the functions of cooking, sewing, cleaning the house, etc. etc. if you were too poor to hire servants.
Physically, 15 is mature enough.
Of course, if any white person complains to me how BT the old Chinese society was, I'd just point out the morally unimpeachable Victorian society.
Physically, 15 is mature enough.
Of course, if any white person complains to me how BT the old Chinese society was, I'd just point out the morally unimpeachable Victorian society.