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tiffany
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丑闻

Post by tiffany » 2005-12-23 12:06

一个人,倘若有黑白分明的对于一个科学研究的道德立场,多半是旁观者---所谓旁观者清。这个问题在干细胞研究这个科学/道德热点上表现的很清楚,其实。
我作为一个科学青年,理所当然对这项科学研究表示支持。换句话讲,准确的说:我认为这项研究是一定要进行的,但是我是坚决不会参与的。这个观点的浮现水面是在我老人家知道干细胞的来源之后。
唐僧科普一下儿先。所谓干细胞,说的是有分裂分化能力的细胞。成年人也有干细胞,但是这些干细胞可能性就受到了限制,好比骨髓里面白细胞的原材料细胞,其实也是一种干细胞,但是这类细胞的可能性就给限制在各类白细胞的范围之内。而胚胎干细胞,其实也就是现在的争议焦点,没有定型,有无限可能性,可能变成脑子神经,可能变成皮肤,等等等等。所以这项研究受到前超人等著名人物的关注,实在是因为它如果发展到应用阶段的话,那么简直是,怎么形容呢,好象金丹妙药突然出现一样啊。
所以站在科学青年的立场上,当然支持这个研究。存疑的开始是看了有一期国家地理还是什么非科学杂志,介绍干细胞研究,提到这项研究的细胞来源。胚胎干细胞么,顾名思义,来源于胚胎。据说之前若干年是采脐带里残留的若干细胞,最近好像是用卵子开始培养。----这方面我不是专家,说错了的地方还请指正。卵子的来源呢?有一部分是来自现在越来越多的不孕症诊所,颇多人收集卵子冷冻起来,准备着做人工受精。当然存的卵子远多过用掉的,这批存下来的富余卵子当然不可能在液氮里面存到永远,所以颇有人建议采用这批卵子做研究用。这项提议当然有人支持有人反对。反对这项提议的人说:这样的话,卵子没有尊严;支持的人说:那么储藏日期到了的话,这批卵子的命运是下水沟,难道很有尊严么?---这在我看来就有些象器官捐献了,每个人的想法都不一样,得征求各人意见才行。然后就跟某同志聊起来这个事情,被人提供wall street journal 一分,一篇文章讲的正是这个韩国的黄博士---说来惭愧,老子是那时侯才听说这么个大牛的先进人物的。
这篇文章报道的是黄博士在U Pen的合伙人撤消对他的支持,原因是他确认研究的卵子来源不够有职业道德。原来黄博士让他手下的女博士生还是女博士后提供研究用卵子,当然说是自愿,不过这个东西怎么也逃不过仗势胁迫。文章接下来说道美国对于用于干细胞研究的卵子有相当严格的管理制度,只能自愿提供,除了医药费交通费之外,不能对提供者给予经济补偿。换句话说,就是不能出钱买。看了看文章描写的收集过程,我就觉得,除非我马上就要睡马路了,不然给我几千刀我也不干。文章接下来说,东亚地区则没有这么严格的管理规定,所以广大美国科学家纷纷担心美国会在干细胞研究中落后。
过了没几个星期,npr早间新闻报道说有人对黄博士的发表在科学杂志上的一篇文章存疑。在这篇文章中,黄博士说他的研究人员把成年病人的分化好了的细胞的细胞核转移到受体卵细胞中,并成功的培养出细胞系(cell line)。这项技术是世界各地多少科学家做了多少年也没做出来的一项技术,据报道说我国科学家听说他做出来了,很丧气,说是估计还有几十年才能做出来的东西,被人家现在就做出来了,人家一日千里,我们怎么也追不上了。这里继续唐僧科普一下儿为什么这个东西是那么巨大一件事情。理论上讲,每一个成年细胞都包含所有的遗传物质(DNA),就是说每一个细胞都有可能给复制成一个完整的人。---好比科幻电影第五元素,飞船坠毁,幸存者就是红发美女的一小块儿肢体。但是实际上,成熟的细胞中,只有一小部分DNA是活跃的而大部分是沉默的。最简单例子来讲:女性的X染色体。女性有两条X,一条来自父亲,一条来自母亲。过了一定的发育阶段以后,其中一条大部分沉默了---至于是哪一条沉默,则由细胞决定,所以从这方面来看,女儿更加的是父母亲的孩子。把沉默的DNA给变成活跃的DNA应该是克隆人的第一步吧,当然这项技术给研究了到现在也有几十年了,还没有成功。而这篇文章说是从成年分化细胞的细胞核培养出来一条cell line,实在是该领域的一个巨大突破,他靠这篇文章估计得坐等诺贝尔奖了。当然有专家看了他这篇文章呢,就很疑惑,说他拿来证明cell line确实是从成年细胞培养来的证据:DNA指纹鉴定那个图,cell line的指纹和成年细胞的指纹一模一样;而DNA指纹鉴定这个东西,同一个样品做两次鉴定,得出来的图谱都是大同小异有细微的差别。接下来有人指出他发的细胞图看上去似乎给修改过。至此好象雪崩,n多人出来发表怀疑意见,科学杂志宣布要对这篇文章开始调查,调查结果是文章说从11个病人取材培养,其中9个结果乃是假的,剩下两个还在调查中。黄博士收回文章,他前几年发表的文章也处于被调查阶段。做科学这一行最重要的可信度,他已经完全没有了。真正可悲。
最后要说什么呢?其实我挺同情他的,那么多年辛苦奋斗,白费了。以后他能干什么呢?我想不出来。今天看科学新闻,他说虽然结果是有问题的,但是方法还是可行的,作困兽斗状。那么他为什么要作假呢?压力太大吧。其实这几篇文章30多个作者,---万事顺利,前途光明的时候大家纷纷往上冲,这会儿丑闻出来,肯定忙不迭的把自己给摘清楚先---真正干活培养细胞的不知道有几个。韩国给黄博士的研究大把投钱,做不出结果来,他的压力很大,他的压力大了,自然要催逼手下做试验的人,做试验的人终于受不了,捏了完美数据出来给他,他也就信了。这个故事教育我们什么呢?科学也是条荆棘路啊,科学家也是人啊。 :mrgreen:
the end
Last edited by tiffany on 2005-12-26 12:11, edited 6 times in total.
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Post by DeBeers » 2005-12-23 12:24

你是在说韩国那件事吗?
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洛洛
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Post by 洛洛 » 2005-12-23 14:53

这时候还上班的,大概也就我这么命苦了。
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Post by 笑嘻嘻 » 2005-12-23 14:55

胡扯,我还在上班。 :twisted: 气死我了。
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Post by karen » 2005-12-23 15:11

韩国那个事,那人真是造了假吗? 他实验室里几十粒人的, 难道大部分人不知道? 要不然是collectively造假? 这难度就高了。
我中午出去转一圈买点零碎东西,可热闹了。 哪儿都是人山人海的,除了学校。 办公室粒空荡荡的。

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Post by tiffany » 2005-12-23 15:25

me2, but going home soon :mrgreen:
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Post by Knowing » 2005-12-23 15:35

I am at work too...damn....on the trading floor ... can't even water.. :mad:
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Post by zephyr » 2005-12-23 15:40

karen wrote:韩国那个事,那人真是造了假吗? 他实验室里几十粒人的, 难道大部分人不知道? 要不然是collectively造假? 这难度就高了。
我中午出去转一圈买点零碎东西,可热闹了。 哪儿都是人山人海的,除了学校。 办公室粒空荡荡的。
我有个印象是实验结果里12个细胞大概就有一两个是真做出来的,其他的都是假的。

karen
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Post by karen » 2005-12-23 15:41

我回家去了。 大家节日快乐! :xmas018:

tiffany
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Post by tiffany » 2005-12-26 12:11

写完了,自提一个。 :mrgreen:
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Knowing
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Post by Knowing » 2005-12-26 12:14

啊,这样,倒酶孩子啊。 :shock:
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Post by silkworm » 2005-12-26 17:52

我从我们实验室韩国薄厚那儿听说,最先出来挑刺儿的是黄教授一度的合作伙伴。此人和爆料的记者,把全体韩国人民恨得牙根儿痒痒。可是后来证据越来越多,人民就没法恨他们了,只有转回来生黄教授的气。

黄教授的路是堵死了,可是他手下的人才更加惨。上别处求职吧,第一没有人给推荐,第二一看简历,原来是……我从学生的角度,特别同情他的研究生,作为研究食物链最底层的蝼蚁,这几年工夫彻底白搭了。


p.s.黄在美国的合作者不是u penn的,是University of Pittsburgh的。

tiffany
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Post by tiffany » 2005-12-26 21:25

:oops: :oops: 不好意思,搞错了。
其实我同情他实验室的所有人,按照做科学这行的时间长短而言,这个黄教授浪费的时间最长,其实。
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Post by 洛洛 » 2005-12-27 7:49

看来攀登科学高峰也真不是容易的事情,念到汉城大学博士也算是人上人了,还要这么屈辱。
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Knowing
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Post by Knowing » 2005-12-27 8:38

On second thought, I have a question. The data they got from experiment, aren't they suppose to be repeatable given all the conditions are the same? Maybe biology is different from other science, but I would think the prof should verify by repeating the experiment and replicate the result before publicate them. Also, is that one student who faked 10 cases? Or several? I can imagine one student had a nerveous breakdown and did sth crazy, but a few of them went nuts together and commited this academic suicide? :uhh: :uhh: :uhh:
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tiffany
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Post by tiffany » 2005-12-27 9:19

I know next to nothing about the tradition in their field, so, cannot answer your question about repeating. As to the result being repeated in other lab, that is too much a investment for the particular lab, so much so that many would rather follow their own path than, you know, repeating other people's results.
As to Dr. Huang's research, I guess only the insiders would know. I sorta only proposed a Cracked-under-pressure scienario/theory, claim no credibility here. It is also possible that the person/people who manufactured the results were too eager and conceited, or whatever it is, to sit down and do real science.
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tiffany
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Post by tiffany » 2005-12-29 9:47

啊,查出来了,另外那两条细胞系是从受精卵来的---好几十年的技术了。
bbc报道说他因为stress住医院了。
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Post by 森林的火焰 » 2005-12-30 19:36

他的可怜的博后和学生们啊。。。几年白过不说,不受连累就算好了。
他的合作者是芝加哥大学的吧?
刚在十二月的科学美国人上看到把他介绍为年度科研领袖呢,真讽剌。我和室友俩人在温哥华的渡轮上扼腕叹息。

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Post by silkworm » 2005-12-31 22:31

Science. 2005 Jun 17;308(5729):1777-83. Epub 2005 May 19.
Patient-specific embryonic stem cells derived from human SCNT blastocysts.
Hwang WS, Roh SI, Lee BC, Kang SK, Kwon DK, Kim S, Kim SJ, Park SW, Kwon HS, Lee CK, Lee JB, Kim JM, Ahn C, Paek SH, Chang SS, Koo JJ, Yoon HS, Hwang JH, Hwang YY, Park YS, Oh SK, Kim HS, Park JH, Moon SY, Schatten G.

Schatten G.=Gerald P. Schatten, Ph.D.
(http://www.pdc.magee.edu/faculty/schatten.html)
Director, Pittsburgh Development Center
Deputy Director, Magee-Womens Research Institute
Professor & Vice Chair of Obstetrics, Gynecology and Reproductive Sciences, and Cell Biology and Physiology, University of Pittsburgh
Director of the Division of Developmental and Regenerative Medicine, University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine

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Post by vivi » 2006-01-03 16:53

I know nothing about this field, and I have a stupid question. What is the reason that some people think the stem cell research is unethical?

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Post by 洛洛 » 2006-01-03 17:19

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Post by tiffany » 2006-01-05 10:48

vivi wrote:I know nothing about this field, and I have a stupid question. What is the reason that some people think the stem cell research is unethical?
I do not know the exact reason why those people feel strongly against the research. Probably has something to do with the origin of the research. I think it started with embryoic cells, for some people a single cell embryo is a person already.
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Post by 森林的火焰 » 2006-01-06 16:08

胚胎干细胞Embryonic stem cell严格来说在体内是不存在的。在胚胎形成的早期,胚胎外面是一圈小细胞滋养层trophectoderm,里面是几十个细胞叫做inner cell mass。这几十个细胞具有形成外胚层,中胚层和内胚层的能力,将来会发育成动物体的所有器官,所以说具有全能性。把这几十个细胞从胚胎中抽出来,在培养盘上以合适的方式培养,就可以得到 胚胎干细胞。胚胎干细胞理论上来讲可以无限传代而保持全能性。在为了得到人类胚胎干细胞,必须破坏人类胚胎,虽然是在胚胎的极早期阶段,体外培养就能得到的胚胎,但毕竟也是胚胎。
这个研究的起源据说是从试管婴儿开始的。试管婴儿的制造为保证成功率,需要女人排一定数量的卵子,统统体外受精,培养一段时间以后挑最好的那个植入子宫。所以就会剩下好多没用的胚胎冷冻着。为了不浪费资源,就开始作干细胞研究。然后就出来一帮伦理学家和基督徒。争到现在。

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Post by Jun » 2006-01-06 16:16

主要是反堕胎的中心论据是人类生命自受精开始,所以在什么时候堕胎都是杀人;那么你拿了人家的受精卵来鼓捣,当然也得算杀人,否则反堕胎立场不攻自破。所以反堕胎人士当然要反stem cell。

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Post by tiffany » 2006-01-11 10:01

心有77的一个评论:
The fall of a scientific 'rock star'


VIEWPOINT
Dr Stephen Minger


He had everything - and he threw it away
At the time I visited Hwang Woo-suk's lab last year, not only was he one of the most distinguished researchers in his field, he was also one of the most publicly adored.

He was a national hero in South Korea, his research lab was probably one of the best funded in the world, and he flew first class anywhere he wanted, any time he wanted, for free, courtesy of Korean Air.

He was treated like a rock star. His spectacular fall from one of the most envied positions in science plays out like a Greek tragedy.

To think that he would risk it all to publish a paper in Science just doesn't make sense.

It is difficult to guess his motivations. Perhaps fame and glory had clouded his vision, and made him think that he constantly had to come up with something bigger and better.


This is not about making money, this is not about getting famous, this is not about signing autographs
Dr Stephen Minger
Perhaps the rush to be first in the world to do something is what drove him to this. As a scientist, we all face pressures: from funding to wanting work to be published in the premiere journals, Nature or Science. But I just don't think that the risks that he took warranted that. It's just a paper after all.

'My family'

I think for somebody like me, who went to his lab to see what his group was capable of, it seemed that if anyone in the world was going to successfully clone a human embryo, it would be him.

I looked at the data when the paper was published as carefully as possible and was convinced that they had done it. And I think that this is one of the problems with fabrication: if you work really hard at it, you can probably get away with it - at least for a while.


The data he provided was convincing
I'm personally disappointed because now it's clear that he also lied about the sources of his eggs for research - paying for some and taking others from the female members of his own research team.

I asked him whether people in his lab had donated eggs, and he got very offended and said something like, "you've seen me interact with my group - they are like my family, I would never exploit my family".

However, all is not lost and I don't think that this has set the science of stem cell biology back.

In terms of somatic cell nuclear replacement, I think that other groups will try this and ultimately will be successful. It is a question of resources and expertise - I don't believe there is a fundamental biological barrier in human cells to this process.

This technique, when successful, would allow us to create stem cell lines tailored to specific patients.

It would also allow us to take people with rare or complex diseases that aren't solely genetic and to try to take stem cells from them as a tool to try to look at that disease, or to use them as a screen for new therapies.

Different routes

The scientific community is also pursuing other methods of generating stem cells; the technique employed by Hwang is really just one avenue, and a relatively fringe one at that.

Most of us are working on stem cell lines generated from embryos donated from IVF and the Korean's fall from grace doesn't affect this research at all.

In a way, this sorry affair damages science more than it damages stem cell research - it could have been cosmology, or physics or any other area of cell biology.


The South Koreans ran a very impressive operation
Hopefully, people will look at this and see that the Hwang affair is an isolated incident. As a scientist, you live and die by your reputation and integrity.

That said, because stem cell research is such a contentious and highly emotive area, it will impact on some people's attitudes. It will further reinforce the attitudes of those who are already opposed to the field, and will probably shift the positions of those who are a bit ambivalent.

We'll just have to deal with it - and stress that the vast majority of us would never take such risks.

This is not about making money, this is not about getting famous, this is not about signing autographs.

This is about generating cells that might be useful in improving the quality of life for people who suffer from really serious diseases. That's my motivation.

If I can look back in 20 years and say that my lab helped contribute to the development of human therapies, that's the reward.

Dr Stephen Minger is senior lecturer and director of the Stem Cell Biology Laboratory at the Wolfson Centre for Age-Related Diseases, King's College London.
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tiffany
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Post by tiffany » 2006-02-23 15:30

蛙塞,这个丑闻真是一个黑洞,越挖越深。最新一期科学杂志科学文章前的文章介绍说这个黄教授接受政府资助多少钱,私人资助多少钱,现在有多少多少钱他说不出来花去哪里了。后来刚出事儿的时候给在美国做实验的两个韩国人一人多少钱,括号注释说其中一个去年12月就把钱给退回去了。还说他当年收集卵子的时候没有给捐献者解释清楚到底有哈副作用,导致若干妇女住院治疗---其中有些人住完了院还接着捐。还说他收集到4000多粒卵子,其中有多少粒没有下落了。
牵扯到太多太多钱太复杂的非科学事情,我自动收回我老的受不住压力理论。
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Post by Jun » 2006-02-23 16:30

I heard on NPR about another scandal. Some Norwegian author totally falsified data out of nowhere and published in NEJM.
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tiffany
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Joined: 2003-11-22 20:59

Post by tiffany » 2006-02-23 16:36

are u talking about the one that supposed pioneered in oral cancer? and the paper that first discussed the cause of the disease?
乡音无改鬓毛衰

pomo
Posts: 657
Joined: 2003-12-13 0:34

Post by pomo » 2006-02-24 2:25

据说中国自主研发的“中国芯”也是假的――敢情科学界也这么黑暗呐。

silkworm
Posts: 4776
Joined: 2004-01-09 20:45

Post by silkworm » 2006-02-24 10:59

我瞟见一眼新闻,说黄教授的韩国同事作证,和他们合作的那个美国教授事先知道他们有些细胞株污染了,但是还“鼓励”他们发文章。
唉,这事儿且完不了呢,成《罗生门》了已经。

我有时和邻座韩国同事聊天,问他有啥内部新闻,他咧咧嘴,说,It is soooo sad. I've forced myself to stop caring about it.

zephyr
Posts: 222
Joined: 2003-12-13 19:20

Post by zephyr » 2006-02-24 18:37

pomo wrote:据说中国自主研发的“中国芯”也是假的――敢情科学界也这么黑暗呐。
汉芯汉芯。。据说拿moto的芯片来把人家的标识磨掉再画上自己的,真是人有多大胆地有多大产啊。 :shock:

saveas
Posts: 879
Joined: 2005-07-02 5:33

Post by saveas » 2006-02-25 0:52

恩那人以前是moto的测试工程师,一直负责模拟电路测试,和DSP没关系,结果回来一年多就发布龙芯了,简直是宇宙速度。8过听上交一人说,他带回来的技术是完整的,有时间的话芯片一定可以出来,磨芯片估计是申请项目经费时间紧,没法子了。

但是他的芯片是没办法量产的,DSP芯片量产的话涉及到生产厂家知识产权的购买以及技术支持之类的。可是一个没办法量产的芯片有什么用呢?可以拿来骗取项目经费――这里面还有许多漆黑无比的内幕,他很多项目经费是虚报的,因为虚报数字可以让年终红包鼓很多,这在整个学校里面司空见惯。他有一部分的项目经费作为固定资产投资划入了学校的一些三产小金库,而一些领导和他自己都是这些三产的董事长或者股权人,可以直接利润分红。

小舞
Posts: 54
Joined: 2006-01-24 22:57

Post by 小舞 » 2006-02-25 21:47

:shock: :f19:

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