zodiac & 300 (updated)

simonsun · Post by **simonsun** » 2007-03-09 1:37

zodiac

* why is it so damned long?

* where did gyllenhaal go in the mid-part of the film?

* i feel that fincher lost track of what's essential to a triller mid-way through the film. it seems that he's swaying between an art-house piece and a box-office hit.

* a 2-hour one would be much better.

---------------

300

* it's rated 8.5 by the fanboys at imdb, but only 60% of the critics (rottentomatoes) like it.

* shocked to hear that the main cast has undergone 6 weeks of body training, i.e., most muscles are for real.

* There are comments like these:
"Fills a much-needed gap between gay porn and recruitment film."

"It's a fireworks show in the daytime, Christmas presents on December 26th, and porn without the penetration."

* a fundamental question comes to the center stage: are all the greeks gay?

* when ebert is gone, roeper rules...
http://www.suntimes.com/news/roeper/289 ... 09.article

-----------------------------------------

(spoilers ahead)

刚刚看完。本来想jjyy一顿的，但是那么多critics都jjyy过了，再来也没有意思。

接着map的话说。Herodotus说的东西，要是世界上没有几个人有共鸣，那么这个世界想想也可怕。Frank Miller如果要说这些东西，希波战争当然是个好例子。But, isn't the story told, in a cartoonish way？没有贬义，是说故事里正邪分明、极端浪漫、外形好看的好看死难看的恶心死，等等等等。

上初中的时候看勇敢的心，非常非常地激动，很长一段时间里对苏格兰、高地、风笛这几个词怀有不切实际的想象。比较一下，300和勇敢的心的区别在哪里？勇敢的心是英雄传说，而300，是英雄漫画。看两个片子，是不同形式的expectation。

绕了一大圈，不过是想说，在frank miller或者是导演那里，从卡通变到电影，style始终是第一位的。第一位的不是英雄主义，不是Herodotus的东西。勇敢的心里，那些风景啊打斗啊，绕着“自由”这个词转。300里头啊，是“自由”绕着打斗转。不然，往人家脸上穿那么多环干什么啊……形象点说，300不是勇敢的心，是带着历史背景的sin sity姊妹篇。如果它是勇敢的心，那么那些sixpacks就太distracting了，效果一点都不好。好些演员显然不习惯裸体演出，呼吸急促的很，sixpack都起起伏伏的……

但是作为cartoon的英雄故事，300还是挺好的。视觉效果真是没说的，音乐也很劲爆。（前座的老奶奶听到有一段，还不由自主晃悠了一下。）虽然编导一致表示他们完全不尊重历史，只是为了kool looks，我还是觉得希波战争这个背景挺拖累的。有这个背景在，就有听说什么波斯人集体抗议拒绝观看的，什么讨论为什么古代人都是只穿内裤跑来跑去的，什么波斯王是不是变性人的，什么为什么希腊人都没有体毛一点也不男人的……千奇百怪无奇不有

。我倒是没有听说有人抱怨sin sity里面的女人胸很大的。

可以列一个表哈。300的six packs/tight shorts；黄金甲的big boobs/低胸装。300的射箭；英雄的射箭。300的盾牌阵；勇敢的心的盾牌阵。300的巨人/大象；指环王的巨人/大象……简直是抄袭咯！Faramir也来串场，并最终成为第二代领导人。练好了肌肉，真是……太HOT了！（这话是谁说的？

）

Jun · Post by **Jun** » 2007-03-09 8:03

I have seen and plan to see NEITHER movie, but that doesn't stop me from chiming in...

Apparently Zodiac is meant to be a postmodern deconstruction of ... (whatever), not meant to be a thriller about a serial killer.

No Fincher for me. NEVER!

Roeper's taste and sensibility are so typical middle America. Not that there's anything wrong with it, but his opinion never gels with mine.

Stephen Hunter wrote about 300:

You never saw so many six-packs in one place outside a Budweiser warehouse!

Knowing · Post by **Knowing** » 2007-03-09 9:42

I also had no interest in either movie. But now I am going to check out the trailer of 300

simonsun · Post by **simonsun** » 2007-03-09 12:35

Knowing wrote:I also had no interest in either movie. But now I am going to check out the trailer of 300

The ultimate muscle fantasy!
:BloodyK:

花差花差小将军 · Post by **花差花差小将军** » 2007-03-09 14:13

And I don't like any movie (not cartoon) that's over-special-effected. Its trailer on TV looks like a video game to me.

simonsun · Post by **simonsun** » 2007-03-09 15:22

花差花差小将军 wrote:And I don't like any movie (not cartoon) that's over-special-effected. Its trailer on TV looks like a video game to me.

Alas, then don't watch it... becasue (from imdb);

There are 1500 cuts in the film, and about 1300 involve some sort of visual effect. The filmmakers used bluescreen 90% of the time, and greenscreen for 10%. There was ONLY one day of location shooting, which was for the horses that were shot for the 'approaching sparta' scene.

It IS a cartoon originally, anyway.

map · Post by **map** » 2007-03-09 19:55

今天看了300，太棒了，回头还要再看一遍。这两年看过的电影里本来我最喜欢放牛班的春天，现在300排老大啦，估计很长一段时间都不会发现更有深意的电影了。我理想中关于希波战争的电影就是这个调调，如果Frank Miller再画一本讲Salami海战的书那就太幸福了。

电影几乎重现了书中的色彩和光线，尤其是Leonidas遇狼的那一幕。没错，书和电影都有很多血腥的场景，不过不是为了吓唬人，也不是为了追求表面的震撼。我总觉得Frank Miller一定画了许多草图，从中筛选出最贴近历史形象和人物精神的极品。

怎样的英雄才能在如此残酷的对抗中获得最后的胜利；为什么我们不会对他们的死亡抱有哪怕是一点点的遗憾和惋惜；历史一而再、再而三的重复，无法被复制的又是什么；人和人生来应该是平等的，有的人偏偏高人一等，这样的高贵和出身、家族、财产、权力、教育都有关系，但是起决定性作用的却是他们做的事情和他们左右局势的影响力。

从十来岁起我就渴望回到古希腊或是春秋战国，和那些伟大的将领一起经历经典战役，体会他们无与伦比的意志、智慧、判断和行动，进而主宰国家与民众的未来。电影继承了书的精髓，满足了我的心愿，棒极了。

Knowing · Post by **Knowing** » 2007-03-09 21:09

A.O.Scott 把300 损的半死，说它跟Apocalypto一样暴力而双倍的愚蠢。“
The big idea, spelled out over and over in voice-over and dialogue in case the action is too subtle, is that the free, manly men of Sparta fight harder and more valiantly than the enslaved masses under Xerxes’ command.”

Jun · Post by **Jun** » 2007-03-09 21:12

Big idea my xxx. Six-packs rule!

Knowing · Post by **Knowing** » 2007-03-09 21:15

I thought six pack is not your cup of tea? Oh well, they are a bit overrated.

map · Post by **map** » 2007-03-09 21:50

可能对古希腊历史不是特别着迷，或是对书没什么感觉的人都不大喜欢那些砍砍杀杀或是围绕着砍砍杀杀展开的情节。我们今天看电影是集体活动，程序员里爱打游戏的人本来就多，加上不少人都喜欢Frank Miller的原书，大家基本认同暴力并不是电影的主题。

书的最后一章标题Victory，表达的意思很接近Herodotus的叙述以及评论，战争的目的与结果非常重要，但是人的精神和力量却是由战争的每一个部分拼接而成的，只有仔细品味才能发现它带来的审美享受丝毫不逊色于那些伟大的艺术品，而我们对于创造艺术的英雄所怀有的敬意是永远也不会被放逐的。

森林的火焰 · Post by **森林的火焰** » 2007-03-09 23:28

嗯今天我们晚上在家吃饭，几个心怀嫉妒的男生说那些six-pack are all juiced!

。
话说回来，我对这个电影十分不感兴趣，一来是那个大英雄在trailer就嚷嚷得太厉害了。没哪个英雄人物分贝动不动这么高的。二来打就打吧，我对他们高呼”freedom“也十分不感冒。加上状如鬼魅的波斯人，太充满暗示了。斯巴达在古希腊城邦里可不以多彩多姿的"freedom”著名。

Knowing · Post by **Knowing** » 2007-03-09 23:42

好些演员显然不习惯裸体演出，呼吸急促的很，sixpack都起起伏伏的……

啊，这句话深深得打动了我的心。。。。！

simonsun · Post by **simonsun** » 2007-03-09 23:52

森林的火焰 wrote:嗯今天我们晚上在家吃饭，几个心怀嫉妒的男生说那些six-pack are all juiced! 。
话说回来，我对这个电影十分不感兴趣，一来是那个大英雄在trailer就嚷嚷得太厉害了。没哪个英雄人物分贝动不动这么高的。二来打就打吧，我对他们高呼”freedom“也十分不感冒。加上状如鬼魅的波斯人，太充满暗示了。斯巴达在古希腊城邦里可不以多彩多姿的"freedom”著名。

我一直跟自己说，这是动画片也……知道自己对什么感兴趣，最重要了

Jun · Post by **Jun** » 2007-03-10 5:45

Knowing wrote:I thought six pack is not your cup of tea? Oh well, they are a bit overrated.

It's not, which is why I don't plan to see the movie. I was speaking for those who ARE into it.

I'm into a round face and a bit of a potbelly.

map · Post by **map** » 2007-03-11 19:16

我真是不可救药的偏执狂。本来昨天打算接着说的，看巴萨和皇马的比赛先憋了一肚子气后来又欣喜若狂，只好去平静平静。

十几岁的时候我对古希腊人物抱有一种盲目崇拜，后来大了不免置疑为什么温泉关战役会得到后人众多的正面肯定。胜者王侯败者寇，千古颠扑不破的真理。希腊联盟没有能够抵挡波斯的陆上进攻，直接后果是雅典全城被波斯焚毁。虽然希腊联盟以比较小的代价保存了可观的战斗力量，但斯巴达300精锐勇士全部阵亡听起来可不像一场意志的胜利。就算Themistocles于Salami大败波斯海军，也不能证明方阵战术的优势和Leonidas的指挥成功，只能说斯巴达的牺牲不是毫无意义的。

考虑Herodotus写作《历史》的背景，Peloponnesian War以雅典的失败而告终，而雅典和斯巴达的分歧是根本不可能消除的。从Herodotus天真的寄望到Thucydides残忍的求实，恰好证明理想化的英雄主义甚至是舍己为人简直与战争本质背道而驰。希腊文明被后世所发扬光大的主要是指雅典文明，立法、议会、公众设施和文教娱乐、海外殖民地，当然最重要的是民主。民主和斯巴达的关系就如同意大利国家队和勇猛顽强的关系一样。

Frank Miller试图表达的是什么呢？幼年的Leonidas孤独无助地在雪地里扎死野狼，他生来就是个斗士，接受的培养也是为了成为一个斗士。历史给了他一个既定的命运，完成这个宿命就是他人生的终极意义，无论结局如何，他必须靠杀戮才能达到目的。原书的色调时时刻刻都在提醒读者，屠杀是惨烈而不幸的。一旦人的命运变成To kill or to be killed，惟余剩勇气和智慧去对抗敌人，投降和妥协的下场不仅可悲而且可鄙。

Frank Miller所描绘的战争过程包括了方阵战术的特点，注重行动的斯巴达人对各种武器的利用，以及最后一天的总结。每个人都有一个宿命（或者说历史的使命），有的人完成不了，有的人仓卒上阵、胡乱应付、虎头蛇尾、顾虑重重；而300个斯巴达人却做好最充分的准备，抱着最坚定的决心，拥有最强大的能力，更不用提勇气和智慧，哪怕历史再重来一次，他们也不可能做到令自己和同胞更加为他们自豪了。从这个意义上讲，他们和Solon、Pericles、Themistocles一样有着极其具体的存在价值，由大而化之的自由来概括未免有点敷衍了事的勉强。我赞同他们是希腊精华的一个组成部分，也应该被从中受益的后人当作英雄来膜拜。

Frank Miller为了证明这个论点，煞费苦心地选择了最有代表性的论据。而他对于战争细节的把握让我相信他是热爱军事艺术的，所有的画面、色彩、光线都是为了这个主题作铺垫，而不是以对比度和大场面冲击读者的视觉。每每合上书，我都一遍遍的回想，究竟英雄主义是不是人们的一种信仰，什么人才愿意并且有资格信仰，它又以什么方式推动历史的发展。正如对宗教和政治的探讨一样，这不是一系列有解的方程式，人类也不会丧失求解的兴趣。

我很喜欢Leonidas一脚将波斯使者踹下深井的画面，非常的豪迈和干脆。

After the expedition to Greece had got under way, Xerxes sent messengers to all Greek cities offering blandishments if they would submit, and asking for "earth and water" from their soil as a token of their submission. Many smaller states submitted. However, the Athenians threw their envoys into a pit and the Spartans threw theirs into a well, taunting them with the retort, "Dig it out for yourselves" (referring to the 'earth and water' demand).

引自Wiki
正如他的《与妻书》一样简洁而明确。

Plutarch mentions in his Sayings of Spartan Women that after encouraging her husband before his departure for the battlefield, Gorgo, the wife of Leonidas I asked him what she should do on his departure. To this Leonidas replied: " Marry a good man, and have good children".

引自Wiki

电影照搬原书的部分我都非常满意，不感兴趣那些画蛇添足的情节，十分厌恶针对波斯的过度妖魔化。大流士和薛西斯皆是明君，波斯入侵希腊正值国力鼎盛的时期，就算是为了丑化邪恶的对立面也要适可而止。历史之所以成为历史，既不靠文学化的夸张也不靠戏剧化的冲突，而是事件和人物本身具备真实的合理性。尤其象希波战争这种被无数历史学家研究过的题材，还会欠缺吸引力和说服力吗？整了一群妖怪来忽悠观众，算什么意思！讨厌讨厌讨厌，好讨厌！

我从来没有完整的看过一遍勇敢的心, 所以也不知道该如何评价。还有其它被拿来和这部电影作比较的诸如Troy我也没看过，更不可以胡说八道了。300对我有着非常特殊的意义，因此要破例再去电影院看一遍。

好吧，我承认我就是Jun说的那号人。真是的，想私藏一点花花肠子都被识破，人生苦短及时行乐也不易啊。我极度着迷战士们的形象，和打动我的很多希腊罗马雕像一样将紧张与松弛不可思议的融和在一起。那样的紧张让我觉得他们训练有素、时刻准备迎战、给予敌人迅雷不及掩耳盗铃的痛击；那样的松弛，又和他们傻乎乎的幽默感不谋而合，什么了不起的家伙呀，不过一顿饭的功夫就端了他们的老底，哪怕在地狱里吃饭，也是一顿好饭。

Jun · Post by **Jun** » 2007-03-12 7:31

Nothing wrong with favoring the muscles -- actually that's most normal and most natural. Why 私藏? I'm the weird one for falling for the "slightly dorky" and awkard type (phrases used by Salon.com to describe Vincent D'Onofrio in L&O: CI, but he also has loads of middle-aged dorky female fans all over the world).

dropby · Post by **dropby** » 2007-03-19 14:47

我拉着某人去看300, 从此丧失了选电影权.

这个电影, 简直就太烂了. 导演整个一张艺谋的学生, 我一看满天箭雨就晕. 还有媒体夸了半天的特技, 效果是所有背景都假得要命, 都象预算不够的剧场背景画片.
剧情我就不说了, 既不尊重历史, 也不酷. 还不如英雄呢.
光玩酷的电影, 如果真酷的话, 比如sin city, kill bill, 我还是满喜欢的. 这个电影酷在哪里啊? 没看出来.

Jun · Post by **Jun** » 2007-03-19 14:57

Supposedly 假得要命 is the intention.

I boycott the movie primarily for the blatant racial divide -- the Greeks/good guys are played by Anglo Saxon actors; the Persian/bad guys are played by black actors. Such a clear illustration of today's US-centric racial perception.

Well, it's not like I need a reason NOT to see the movie.

dropby · Post by **dropby** » 2007-03-19 15:10

假得要命也有两种, 一种是假而酷, 比如sin city, 因为酷所以没人在乎假不假. 一种是假而不酷, 因为不酷就只剩下假了.

我主要是太喜欢看特技了, 所以上了一大当.

Elysees · Post by **Elysees** » 2007-03-19 16:20

好些演员显然不习惯裸体演出，呼吸急促的很，sixpack都起起伏伏的……

这句话也深深打动了我，我预备去看一遍......另外，难道呼吸急促不是必须的末，这样sixpack们才能充分显示出它们的真实性啊。

vivi · Post by **vivi** » 2007-03-19 17:36

dropby wrote:我拉着某人去看300, 从此丧失了选电影权.

me too, haha

Ever since I picked the movie Serenity, I am not allowed to pick anymore.

map · Post by **map** » 2007-03-19 20:28

dropby的评论真是太可爱了。300的主题非常简单，就和书里那几页纸的意思差不多，故事单调，人物也不丰满，但是完美的表达了主题。History gives you a destiny, get prepared and do it. 我早已经厌倦了没完没了的疯子、傻子、变态、杀人魔、妖怪和神经病，还不如看看我心中的理想世界。

300的特技完全不是为了真实或者耍酷，我猜测和张艺谋后来的作品大概也不一样，《我的父亲母亲》是我看过最后一部张艺谋的电影。我说了半天也没说清楚，只能用最偷懒的解释：Frank Miller的Graphic Novel是个什么味道，电影就追求一模一样的味道。我不在乎电影是不是尊重历史，只要基本尊重原书就足够。公司有个同事说他带儿子去看，虽然他儿子对电影歪曲历史的部分也是很不满，但不妨碍对电影整体的喜欢。

小e，我打算拖着我朋友去看一次，用六块肌诱惑她，好像效果还不错，她同意周末和我去一趟。我们组的小朋友说第二次看比较容易忽略那些乱改的部分，可以尽情的欣赏电影里他喜欢的场面。

森林的火焰 · Post by **森林的火焰** » 2007-03-19 21:34

这是一件很有趣的事情――和Jun一样，令我条件反射般反感的是太陈腐生厌的“主旋律”：好人是“主流人”，坏人是“边缘人”（外来人？）。在我看来，这是再明显不过的。
可是小爱非常惊讶我的这种想法，认为是“过度阐释”。虽然在别的电影和报道中，他能挖掘出我没看出来的“美式主旋律迎合”并迎头针砭之。可能是这次他被过度喜爱的偏见蒙了眼，我认为。

dropby · Post by **dropby** » 2007-03-20 18:49

map wrote:还不如看看我心中的理想世界。

你的理想世界是300那样的?

难怪我们对这部电影的观点完全不一样.

tiffany · Post by **tiffany** » 2007-03-20 21:12

我没看错吧？斯巴达民主？雅典人要是知道若干千年以后他们被后人跟斯巴达人撮一堆儿一起算希腊人估计会不太爽。
that being said, 请问这个mindless action打得好不好看肌肉美不美丽？重要的是值不值10刀进电影院？这个值得的参照是troy。

花差花差小将军 · Post by **花差花差小将军** » 2007-03-21 8:46

It is said, historically, that they encourage homo relatioships, believing strong male bounding

serves as solid foundation for a strong army

I would not pay movie ticket price to see it. Maybe when it's on DVD...

Jun · Post by **Jun** » 2007-03-21 9:30

Damn I cannot remember the source of the NPR program about this new exhibit on sexual practices in ancient Greek and Roman societies. I heard it recently. Anyone else heard it?

Homosexuality was not a taboo and was often practiced between older and younger men as a "teaching" process. Women were reproduction tools. Truly meaningful spiritual bonding can only occur between men.

Actually I think I might have gone through a stage that was somewhat similar to MAP's preference, except for the admiration for the powerful, simply because I have a deep anti-authority, anti-power, rebellious stream all my life. But I was quite taken by the male-bonding romanticism in wuxia genre and its modern incarnation in John Woo's stuff. I was really fascinated by the supposedly pure and asexual brotherly love.

Then I had the rude awakening -- in fact the asexual, pure and idealistic brotherly love is as sexual as the utilitarian heterosexual romance.

So now I'm bored and tired of the machismo and heroism.

Sex is all fine and nice, but in art it's just too ... simple.

花差花差小将军 · Post by **花差花差小将军** » 2007-03-21 9:32

I suggest you go over Sheepish (in New Yorker, recommended by our darling doll Knowing)

dropby · Post by **dropby** » 2007-03-21 11:50

不值得. 这个电影我看到后来都快睡着了. 不过我也没觉得TROY的那票值得. 以TROY为标准的话, 应该说这个电影更不值得.

那个打吧, 就是中国古代小说中大将杀入敌阵, 杀人如砍瓜切菜的视觉演义. 太假太假了.

map · Post by **map** » 2007-03-21 20:27

dropby wrote:
map wrote:还不如看看我心中的理想世界。
你的理想世界是300那样的? 难怪我们对这部电影的观点完全不一样.

为什么不是呢？强者之所以成为强者总有一些必然的原因和背景，然后对他人和后世产生不可磨灭的控制以及影响。雅典在两次战争之间的辉煌有着非同寻常的意义，间接促成了这个黄金时代的重要因素也被理想化了，而且Herodotus的理想主义并不缺乏现实基础。雅典在Peloponnesian War中遭受了巨大的打击，失去了许多联盟和殖民地，而波斯帝国却成为受益者。Herodotus自然希望雅典和斯巴达能够回到过去一致对外的结盟状态。如果300斯巴达勇士未曾凭借勇气和优于敌军的战术阻击波斯军队，那么脆弱的希腊城邦联盟有可能瞬时间土崩瓦解，也许雅典文明等不到亚历山大大帝的传播就被尘土掩埋，对近代西方文明无法轻视的启发也就成了一个疑问。

虽然拿教父来作比对有点抬高这部电影，不过两者相似的地方也是两部电影吸引我的地方。年轻的维托在干掉法努其之前周密冷静的分析了除去他的后果和向他服软的后果，接着安抚自己的帮手，然后讲道理迷惑他，最后果断的打死他。电影教父2没有详细交代整个过程，不过表达的主题是一样的，不是什么人都能成为教父，而维托通过这件事充分证明了他成为教父的资格。强者背后的解释对我来说耐人寻味，温泉关战役即便不是希波战争的转折点，也足以为Salami海战和Plataea战役做埋伏。电影300成功的阐述300个斯巴达人被视为英雄的理由，这比逼真的特技、情节曲折的故事或是内心丰富的人物具有更多的深意。

History Channel在首映之前放过一部关于300人的记录片，包括斯巴达的方阵战术，温泉关地形，300人的武器装备，什么时候使用长矛，什么时候使用短刀，和电影的出入不大，可恨没有六块肌。:f28:

Jun说起霸权，我知道我在这个事情上过于偏激，不然怎么会成为Wagnar的拥趸。不过考虑到霸权为许多美好的人和事（艺术、文学、科学）提供了沃土，那么弄清霸权的前因后果也是一种有趣的研究吧。

即使我这个为了意大利队两年哭一次的球迷也不可能自欺欺人的称赞意大利队勇猛顽强，他们的优势一直都是无赖和诈骗。哪怕去年让大家刮目相看一把，勇猛顽强是里皮的勇猛顽强，和意大利队的历史传统不是一回事。这个比方的意思就是民主和斯巴达没有多大的关系。

森林的火焰 · Post by **森林的火焰** » 2007-03-21 21:53

I can't believe people can believe 霸权 offer 沃土 for 艺术、文学、科学. Forgive me being rude, but do u really understand what u are talking about? What I have seen is scientists and artists run away from 霸权, instead embracing it.
What's ur definition of 霸权? You may think Spartan is one, and Persian is another one. When they were busy fighting, what kind of 艺术、文学、科学 has been generated?

simonsun · Post by **simonsun** » 2007-03-22 1:41

Jun wrote:Homosexuality was not a taboo and was often practiced between older and younger men as a "teaching" process.

一看到这类文字我就断章取义激动不已地地跳出来发表一下回复。:twisted:

Pamuk的《红》里头，也有不少handsome young appretice一类的东西。成年男子都照常娶妻生子。fall in love with young boy之类的，虽说也是love，但其实和逛风月场所一个意思：都是广大群众喜闻乐见的娱乐形式。

所以说这些东东，都是有实无名。不是作为男“人”的两个男人的love，而是某种已经被接受的love形式，比如师生、战友、保护者被保护者等等的，加了一个性的内容在里头。

就没有听说哪两个大男人结了婚，发现生活不幸福，两人跑出去私奔的。BBM大概是头一遭，而且还是搞得偷偷摸摸的。

陈周侯 · Post by **陈周侯** » 2007-03-22 6:48

伯罗奔尼撒战争是在温泉关之战之后。

Jun · Post by **Jun** » 2007-03-22 7:18

You may think Spartan is one, and Persian is another one. When they were busy fighting, what kind of 艺术、文学、科学 has been generated?

Frank Miller's graphic novel?

(Not that I've read it.)

vivi · Post by **vivi** » 2007-03-22 11:34

我知道我在这个事情上过于偏激，不然怎么会成为Wagnar的拥趸。

I was reading a book review on NYT just the other day. It is not about Wagner, but his daughter in law.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... %20Reviews

I wonder other than the music, what else you like so much about Wagner?

Jun · Post by **Jun** » 2007-03-22 12:01

Not that I'm a Wagner fan (can't stomach the music), but if we use the logic of the Financial Times' writer, a German can similarly say: "Calm down, it's just music." One could also say, "If you have a little sense of humor and appreciation for art, you wouldn't make such a big fuss about it..."

vivi · Post by **vivi** » 2007-03-22 13:20

Well, that's why I said 'other than music'.
Also I am kind of sick of people saying things like 'lighten up, it is just a joke'. it is easy to say when it is not your expense.

花差花差小将军 · Post by **花差花差小将军** » 2007-03-22 13:27

I kind of like many of the FT articles, mostly because Europeans do not seem to be obssessed with PC. I often laugh out loud when reading the articles.
I also believe guns do not kill people. Apes with guns kill people.

Jun · Post by **Jun** » 2007-03-22 13:33

I know, the general is a libertarian.

花差花差小将军 · Post by **花差花差小将军** » 2007-03-22 13:37

But loves veal and duck, no vegan, Recycles, but no tree-hugging hybrid-driving green pea. I also do not believe in the welfare system. I am an Ayn Rand type of free-market everything-goes nut.

Jun · Post by **Jun** » 2007-03-22 13:43

Exactly, you are a libertarian, not a libral. Libertarians hunt moose and eat the meat. Libertarians want the less government the better. Libertarians advocate "no government funding for art." Libertarians do not believe in taxes. You're a classic libertarian.

花差花差小将军 · Post by **花差花差小将军** » 2007-03-22 13:45

OMG I have a name now I have a name

I suddenly see myself do I need a leaf for coverage?

Jun · Post by **Jun** » 2007-03-22 13:49

A fig leaf.

ravaged · Post by **ravaged** » 2007-03-22 16:06

accepting the reality of power is necessary. idolizing it is... well, we all know what happened to those who idolize it.

as for hegemony and art, eastern europe and china from 1945 to 1990 must've been bursting at the seams with wonderful art and literature.

map · Post by **map** » 2007-03-22 18:30

ravaged wrote:accepting the reality of power is necessary. idolizing it is... well, we all know what happened to those who idolize it.

as for hegemony and art, eastern europe and china from 1945 to 1990 must've been bursting at the seams with wonderful art and literature.

可能我们对霸权的定义不同，我理解的霸权和专制不是一回事。霸权往往意味着先进的生产力和社会制度，强大的经济和军事实力，与外界频繁广泛的交流，对周边地区及后世的深远影响，比如伊丽莎白一世时期。
崇拜霸权和热衷分析霸权的前因后果又是两件不同的事情。前者仅仅是被动的接受，而后者则要求更多的归纳、比较和判断。

I wonder other than the music, what else you like so much about Wagner?

Well, that's why I said 'other than music'.
Also I am kind of sick of people saying things like 'lighten up, it is just a joke'. it is easy to say when it is not your expense.

我对Wagner的看法和感情一两句话说不清楚，而且有相当长的一段时间我喜欢Wagner的哲学甚至超过他的音乐戏剧，这不仅仅是年少无知造成的迷恋，更多的是艰难的求知过程，而这个过程对我来说是不可或缺的。接受或者否定首先需要充分的了解，了解之后无法反驳于是选择死心塌地的相信，反复掂量才开始质疑，慢慢在Bach的帮助下做比对，最后弄清楚我需要什么。如果让我从头来一遍，要不要被Wagner控制，我很难回答。因为Wagner对我的影响已经完全溶入了我的生活，是我成长的见证。
Barenboim曾经在以色列指挥演出Wagner的女武神，他的看法比我的要有趣多了。

森林的火焰 · Post by **森林的火焰** » 2007-03-22 19:51

OK I think u definition of 霸权 is "being developed".
Have to say, it's a funny one.
I'd like to ask opinions from some North Europeans whose countries are so full of art and science and everything else. I don't think they'd love to be called 霸权.

[cite]ccepting the reality of power is necessary. idolizing it is... well, we all know what happened to those who idolize it. [/cite]
Tell me waht happened to those who idolize it? I think they end up variously before...

or there is one thing they definitely share: Stockholm syndrome.

森林的火焰 · Post by **森林的火焰** » 2007-03-22 19:52

OK I think u definition of 霸权 is "being developed".
Have to say, it's a funny one.
I'd like to ask opinions from some North Europeans whose countries are so full of art and science and everything else. I don't think they'd love to be called 霸权.

ccepting the reality of power is necessary. idolizing it is... well, we all know what happened to those who idolize it.

Tell me waht happened to those who idolize it? I think they end up variously before...

or there is one thing they definitely share: Stockholm syndrome.

Jun · Post by **Jun** » 2007-03-23 7:01

some North Europeans whose countries are so full of art and science

Like which ones? The glorious classic art of ... Oslo? Helsinki?

Nordic people were too busy keeping themselves barely alive, when people in the south (from Egypt and Tunisia to Greece and Italy to Iran and Syria) were reading, writing, doing fabulous things with agriculture, mathematics, astronomy, chemistry, poetry, art, and GREAT FOOD.

I have nothing against barbarians, but let's not confuse the 19th century white supremecist bullshit and history.

森林的火焰 · Post by **森林的火焰** » 2007-03-23 8:20

Jun wrote:
some North Europeans whose countries are so full of art and science
Like which ones? The glorious classic art of ... Oslo? Helsinki?

Nordic people were too busy keeping themselves barely alive, when people in the south (from Egypt and Tunisia to Greece and Italy to Iran and Syria) were reading, writing, doing fabulous things with agriculture, mathematics, astronomy, chemistry, poetry, art, and GREAT FOOD.

I have nothing against barbarians, but let's not confuse the 19th century white supremecist bullshit and history.

OK I think you are over interprete my case. It's just ONE case but not all.
I'm not referring to old time. I'm talking about modern days, after 20 century. The countries who have good art and science but NOT with strong hegemony, especially MILITARY power.
Map's point is hegemony results in art and science. My point is it's not necesary. That's it. I'm not trying to find out who has the EARLIEST civilization.
Even in the ancient society, Crete culture is even earlier than Greeks, and they are very peaceful, not with a strong and powerful king and army. Their art were inherited by other Greeks. It is said the culture may got destroyed by earthquake, but not sure.