I'm having a European family feud
By Cary Tennis
Feb. 11, 2008 | Dear Cary,
For the last 19 years, my husband and I have lived in the eastern U.S., across the Atlantic from my family. My two older siblings and my parents live within several miles of each other in the same European capital. It's an arrangement that's worked quite well for me because I find my family a bit overpowering at times.
Recently, though, the distance has been causing problems. This last Christmas, we traveled over there, taking our 6-year-old son and 1-year-old daughter. It was the first time we'd crossed the Atlantic with the baby, and we found the combination of jet lag and baby-related sleep deprivation crushing. We were staying with my parents (they're the only ones with a spare room) and it's fair to say that we weren't always gracious guests, especially in the first week (we stayed for three). All things considered, though, I thought we did OK.
A couple of days before we came back to the States, though, my sister and brother sat me down for a talk. They'd decided it was no longer appropriate for me and my family to stay with our parents when we visit. Our father, who's now 81, is not in great health and they feel it's too much of a strain for him to have us in the house. My brother offered to help us find a sublet or house swap for our next visit, and I agreed.
Then the conversation turned to my husband. They had complaints about his behavior. He's aloof. He's not a family person. He doesn't ask them questions about themselves. My brother has been harping on this theme to me, on and off, for a few years. I've told him to go directly to my husband if he has a problem because I figure, why should I be the messenger? This time, he actually did go to my husband. And the result was horrible. My husband felt attacked, got defensive and basically told my brother to f--- off. This made my brother even angrier than before.
We left under a cloud, with everyone feeling crappy. Then things got worse. I wrote an e-mail to my sister saying I was upset about the sudden attack on my husband. In response, she wrote me a long letter eloquently describing what she saw as MY character flaws. She held no punches and was very cruel. To quote one example: "It seems that you insist upon holding on to every perceived slight against you in a self-destructive way that must be soul-destroying for you and is quite mystifying to us."
Can you see why I find these people overpowering? They're allowed to be upset, but I'm not. If I am, it plays into the stereotype they have of me as someone who's negative and "holds on to every perceived slight." You know how it is in families: People have their assigned roles. In my family, I'm the screwy, remote little kid who flew the coop.
To be honest, there's a grain of truth in some of their criticisms of me and my husband. My husband can be antisocial. I can be moody and tend to remember negative things. But then, my brother (who's extremely funny and charismatic) can be thoughtless and dogmatic, and my sister (who's smart and capable) can be hyper-sensitive and condescending. I'm stunned they think that attacking us is the way to improve family harmony. It seems especially odd that they've known my husband for 21 years and are now saying that his behavior is unacceptable.
My brother and sister insist that they love me and have said these things because they want to "clear the air." I took the moral high road and have refrained from lashing out at them in return. Instead, I wrote them a calm letter, admitting some of their points but saying I disagreed with their methods. I figured, why hurt them the way they'd hurt me? But now I think I was wrong, and that I should have "cleared the air" right back at them, because I'm still seething.
My parents are getting older, and I don't want to sully their last years with petty quarrels. But maybe this one isn't so petty. I feel as though my siblings have crossed a line in the sand. Right now I'm not talking to either of them. Cary, you always have thoughtful and "different" advice, and I feel as though this situation could use some creativity. What do you think? Should I swallow my hurt for the sake of family harmony? Or will it fester and make things worse in the long run?
Estranged European
[分享] Advice Column on Salon.com
[分享] Advice Column on Salon.com
我经常看advice columns，或许是Simenon 说的，人都有这个欲望，从钥匙孔里偷看邻居家的事儿。我不觉得喜欢八卦是坏事，对别人的生活内幕和困扰多些了解，能增加对他人的宽容程度和对自己生活的满足感－－－原来我的生活还不算太糟糕。
此喵已死，有事烧纸
看来CAVA君是从非常幸福的家庭里出来的人哪。幸福家庭里出来的人和问题家庭里出来的人，好象外向性格和内向性格的人，或者分析理智型和感性型的人，很难互相理解。再次表明语言是一个幻觉，有时候不能真正传达现实。
When it comes to family problems, reason has nothing to do with it; doing the right thing has nothing to do with it; being sane has nothing to do with it. There is nothing in the world more fraught with primal, irrational emotions and fears.
就事论事 is never, never, never applicable in family issues, especially unhappy families with deep and long-running conflicts.
When it comes to family problems, reason has nothing to do with it; doing the right thing has nothing to do with it; being sane has nothing to do with it. There is nothing in the world more fraught with primal, irrational emotions and fears.
就事论事 is never, never, never applicable in family issues, especially unhappy families with deep and long-running conflicts.
此喵已死，有事烧纸
我觉得还是能理解她看到姐姐的信恼羞成怒那一段的心理活动的。
批评人这件事情，要么是彼此非常信任的人之间做的，不过在这种情况下，动手批评的一般会非常小心翼翼，因为注重对方的感觉，不希望对方感到hurted。另一种情况就是，动手批评的人不在乎对方的感觉，只想讲出自己的看法，被批的人也很容易看出，你对我怎么被hurt一点也不在乎，这样一来很容易把信任破坏完，被批的人默默的生气或者吼回去。
我觉得她姐姐给她写这种信有点过分，缺乏成年人之间起码的礼貌。夫妻之间如果这样直言不讳，对彼此的关系都会有很大损害，何况是并不太亲密的姐妹之间。
我特地跑去看回复，想看看Cary有什么高见。结果就看到他和街道大妈一样安慰写信的人，别难过，我和你一样惨，Orz一下。
批评人这件事情，要么是彼此非常信任的人之间做的，不过在这种情况下，动手批评的一般会非常小心翼翼，因为注重对方的感觉，不希望对方感到hurted。另一种情况就是，动手批评的人不在乎对方的感觉，只想讲出自己的看法，被批的人也很容易看出，你对我怎么被hurt一点也不在乎，这样一来很容易把信任破坏完，被批的人默默的生气或者吼回去。
我觉得她姐姐给她写这种信有点过分，缺乏成年人之间起码的礼貌。夫妻之间如果这样直言不讳，对彼此的关系都会有很大损害，何况是并不太亲密的姐妹之间。
我特地跑去看回复，想看看Cary有什么高见。结果就看到他和街道大妈一样安慰写信的人，别难过，我和你一样惨，Orz一下。
写信的人恼羞成怒，不全是因为被指责批评啦，而是因为她们家从小就是这样的关系，我可以打赌，她恼羞成怒是因为勾起了从小到大不停地被这个姐姐cut down to size的回忆，比话语更强烈的是记忆中的感情反应，突然之间她又回到了powerless, defenseless, 自惭形秽的幼年时代，条件反射地flashback。就事论事是没有用的，讲道理也是没有用的。当然她的哥哥姐姐自有他们的issues，要说是故意欺负她也不是的。这就是他们家的family dynamic，大家都习惯了这么互相对待。小时候没有在家庭里培养出安全感，长大以后就很难理智冷静地面对批评和逆境。尤其是来自家庭内部的矛盾，让幼儿感到自己的生存和饱暖直接受到威胁，这是最primitive的生理和感情反应，讲理是没有用的。
Obviously the letter writer knew her visit was probably a bother to her parents and it would be appropriate to stay at a hotel the next time. She probably agrees with that advice. Yet she is still fuming as hell and feels deeply deeply angry and hurt, maybe more hurt because her own feelings do not seem logical or reasonable. A securely attached person would shrug it off and say OK, sorry about the trouble, we'll stay at a hotel next time, big deal, and move on, but she can't, because it's not about hotels, or the husband, the kids, or anything concrete about this particular visit.
Also, because this emotional reaction is not logical or reasonable in the context of the present event, it is very difficult for the person to articulate to others or even herself what exactly is making her upset. This is why I believe casual reasoning does not work for these emotional habits, but skillful and insightful reasoning and learning (cognitive training) are absolutely necessary in understanding and changing the deeply ingrained patterns of thinking and feeling.
Another curious thing to me is how family dynamics are similar in different cultures. I seem this kind of thing from every background. (Maybe except Italy? Maybe I have an unrealistic view of Italian families?)
Obviously the letter writer knew her visit was probably a bother to her parents and it would be appropriate to stay at a hotel the next time. She probably agrees with that advice. Yet she is still fuming as hell and feels deeply deeply angry and hurt, maybe more hurt because her own feelings do not seem logical or reasonable. A securely attached person would shrug it off and say OK, sorry about the trouble, we'll stay at a hotel next time, big deal, and move on, but she can't, because it's not about hotels, or the husband, the kids, or anything concrete about this particular visit.
Also, because this emotional reaction is not logical or reasonable in the context of the present event, it is very difficult for the person to articulate to others or even herself what exactly is making her upset. This is why I believe casual reasoning does not work for these emotional habits, but skillful and insightful reasoning and learning (cognitive training) are absolutely necessary in understanding and changing the deeply ingrained patterns of thinking and feeling.
Another curious thing to me is how family dynamics are similar in different cultures. I seem this kind of thing from every background. (Maybe except Italy? Maybe I have an unrealistic view of Italian families?)
Last edited by Jun on 2008-02-11 10:12, edited 2 times in total.
此喵已死，有事烧纸
说的对，其实是emotional response，attack和confront，姐姐讲的对不对关系不大，事实上写信的人也说，姐姐讲的是对的，但是她感觉很hurted。如果写这封信的人是她老板或者从不来往的远方表姐，也就是没有emotional relationship的人，反应肯定完全不一样。
JUN同学应该去回复这个问题的，嘿嘿。Cary直接就说这个问题始终是呆在那里的怪兽，作什么都无能为力。写信的人一开始会因为有人和她有empathy感到欣慰，然后大概就会因为Cary说这个问题人类无能为力而感到深深的失望。其实心理学的问题很多时候是在打纸老虎，很多时候是在和自己内心的阴影而非实体作斗争。我觉得了解为什么会有这样的反应，这种反应建立在哪种irrational的下意识的基础上会有一些帮助。
同意CAVA，她应该和对方保持适当距离，也是避免自己被stimulated的一种保护措施。
JUN同学应该去回复这个问题的，嘿嘿。Cary直接就说这个问题始终是呆在那里的怪兽，作什么都无能为力。写信的人一开始会因为有人和她有empathy感到欣慰，然后大概就会因为Cary说这个问题人类无能为力而感到深深的失望。其实心理学的问题很多时候是在打纸老虎，很多时候是在和自己内心的阴影而非实体作斗争。我觉得了解为什么会有这样的反应，这种反应建立在哪种irrational的下意识的基础上会有一些帮助。
同意CAVA，她应该和对方保持适当距离，也是避免自己被stimulated的一种保护措施。
i agree that family problems can never be resolved by reasoning or the merit of the argument, but honestly i don't think anything helps in this situation. they will never have the relationship and trust among them that she wants, and if she can't live with that, she'll be in agony. also, no one ever appreciates being told what's wrong with them in any kind of relationship, so once her sister is tactless enough to do that, it's all over as far as i'm concerned.
Now that happy moment between the time the lie is told and when it is found out.
That's an interesting point. Actually, this illustrates why family conflicts, especially unarticulated problems, are so very difficult to manage and require so much work.once her sister is tactless enough to do that, it's all over as far as i'm concerned.
In most family situations, the heart of the problem is precisely that nobody can really get away from anybody. Few people can completely cut off their family ties. Even avoiding contact with the difficult family members cannot remove the scars and guilt that haunt someone.
The biological/genetic bond among family members is real, and on top of that you have the social expectation and belief that family members have obligations to each other, especially but not limited to between children and parents. Few things are more universal and persistent in human history.
Also note that a person with insecure attachment not only has an exaggerated reaction to criticism, but also craves approval. This fear of criticism is closely mingled with the need for approvals and validation, ultimately from his or her family but can manifest in other social relationships.
此喵已死，有事烧纸
on second thought her sister is not just blunt; she's vile. "self-destructive" and "soul-destroying" - imho these are not meant to provoke self-reflection and encourage change, but to harm. Toxic stuff... Even if you thought so, saying it out loud is another matter.
But I'm not saying that therefore it's her sis' fault and she's the one who should come around to the author. The underlying ties have simply eroded beyond repair, I think.
But I'm not saying that therefore it's her sis' fault and she's the one who should come around to the author. The underlying ties have simply eroded beyond repair, I think.
Now that happy moment between the time the lie is told and when it is found out.