次贷革命(ZT)

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豪情
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次贷革命(ZT)

Post by 豪情 » 2008-03-03 11:54

Activists bare teeth over foreclosures By ADAM GELLER, AP National Writer
Sat Mar 1, 12:42 PM ET



CLEVELAND - Folks on Humphrey Hill Drive were still waking up on the icy Saturday morning the shark hunters came to town. They rounded the suburban traffic circle in a pair of rented school buses after a half-hour ride from far more modest neighborhoods, rumbling to a stop at the Garmone family's driveway. Forty-two caffeinated Clevelanders piled out, their leaders carrying bullhorns.



Their quarry, Mike Garmone ― a regional vice president at Countrywide Financial Corp., the nation's largest mortgage lender ― didn't answer his door. So they deployed, ringing bells at the big homes with three-car garages, handing out accusatory fliers and lambasting Garmone and his company's loans. Before departing, they left their calling card ― thousands of 2 1/2-inch plastic sharks ― flung across Garmone's frozen flower beds, up into the gutters, littering the doorstep.

The commotion was the work of an in-your-face activist group called the East Side Organizing Project, with a paid staff then of just two, mobilized to battle Cleveland's mortgage "loan sharks." Years before the rest of the country was rocked by the fallout from aggressive lending, their neighborhoods were already home to the nation's highest concentration of foreclosures ― and they were fed up.

ESOP's people are proudly loud and abrasive, and they've long reveled in needling people with pull. But could they get a distant behemoth like Countrywide to the table?

On that morning in February 2006, ESOP executive director Mark Seifert had his doubts. For starters, he wasn't sure his group's research on Garmone even had the family's correct address.

Until two evenings later, when Seifert checked his e-mail and found a message from a top public relations executive at Countrywide's California headquarters.

We need to talk, it said.

Seifert broke into a wide grin.

Now that David had Goliath's ear, he wasn't about to let go.

___

The foreclosure epidemic that has infected Cleveland's neighborhoods started earlier and has been even more punishing than the crisis much of the rest of the country is enduring. It's a symptom of the lax lending that became widely common, without the run-up in home prices that long camouflaged it.

"The problems that exist everywhere now ... showed themselves earlier here because there was no getting out of them," says Zach Schiller of Policy Matters Ohio, a Cleveland nonprofit focused on the state's economy.

The problem is well documented ― Cleveland and the surrounding county saw more than 15,000 foreclosures last year. But to grasp its impact, walk with Nita Gardner down the block of East 113th Street where she raised two boys.

When Gardner, a retired machinist, bought the gray wood-frame house 33 years ago, this part of the Mt. Pleasant neighborhood was filled with families. Their homes on small lots were modest, but maintained with pride.

Have a look at what's left.

The white house on the opposite corner ― its front porch ripped away by scavengers ― fell to foreclosure last year. The home behind it ― blue with plank-covered windows ― went soon after.

A few doors down from Gardner, three homes in a row are abandoned. Three of the four across from them are vacant, too. It's not like some manicured suburban neighborhood, where it's a guess if a house is empty. Here, shredded curtains flap from holes where windows used to be. The silver fringes of insulation hang from walls where aluminum siding has been stripped for resale.

In early 2006, Gardner's adult sons ― who had bought the house from her ― fell behind on their mortgage and the lender, Countrywide, began foreclosure.

Gardner stepped in to fight, although looking at the home's drab exterior and the surrounding neighborhood, it's not immediately clear why.

Until, that is, Gardner opens the front door and light spills over the floor to a mural of an Egyptian pharaoh she painted in gold and azure across the living room wall. Upstairs, a closet door still bears the markings in pen where her sons charted their heights, year after year.

"I just feel like I'm a whole person with this house," says Gardner, explaining her battle to save it. "Because this is not just a house. It's me."

___

When ESOP held its annual meeting in 1999, organizers were surprised to see empty chairs. They called the missing and found many phones had been disconnected. They knocked on doors and found empty homes.

It was the first sign, Seifert recalls, that people in some of Cleveland's poorest neighborhoods were losing their homes to foreclosure.

ESOP's organizers, until then working with parents on safety around public schools, knew nothing about mortgage lending. But they did know how to raise hell.

That was clear in the mid-1990s, when ESOP demanded that Cleveland officials give money seized in drug busts to struggling city schools.

When Mayor Michael White put them off, ESOP members picketed White's church and ask the pastor to excommunicate him. They set up outside the house of the mayor's father, demanding he talk with his son. To drive the message home, ESOP activists figured out the married mayor had a girlfriend and went to her door with a letter demanding the cash.

The tactics came back to bite them.

"We lost about 90 percent of our funding overnight," Seifert recalls.

The nonprofit staggered. If it was going to be confrontational, it needed to keep the foundations that fed its budget in the loop.

Fighting foreclosures became their new cause. But they brought along old tactics ― a brand of confrontation honed by Saul Alinsky, the legendarily radical Chicago organizer.

"Power is not only what you have," Alinsky schooled his followers, "but what the enemy thinks you have."

ESOP was banking on anger. Clevelanders were losing their homes, organizers concluded, because aggressive lenders had put people in mortgages they couldn't possibly afford.

In 2002, the group began going after lenders, servicers and mortgage brokers.

At one protest outside a branch of Charter One Financial Inc., a police officer confronted an ESOP volunteer in a shark suit.

"Are those your sharks?" the officer demanded, scooping plastic predators from the ground.

"No," protester Christine Regula replied. "I had my tubes tied."

They also pressed public officials to stall foreclosures proceedings. One, Steven Bucha, chief magistrate in charge of foreclosures in Cleveland's courts, recalls being invited by ESOP to a public forum. More than 200 people packed a church basement. Bucha was seated as far as possible from the door.

"A woman gave a fiery speech about how the system had done her wrong, how the system was in collusion with the court ― and here's the guy responsible! And she pointed at me. I really couldn't get a word out," Bucha says. "It was like nothing else I've ever experienced in my life."

Bucha and others say the "guerrilla warfare" approach was counterproductive.

"Nobody likes our tactics, which is precisely why we use them," Seifert says.

One after another, the group squeezed and cajoled eight companies and their subsidiaries into signing pacts giving it direct access to a single executive with the authority to restructure problem loans. The companies have agreed to cut interest rates and waive penalty fees and past-due balances.

Last year, ESOP ― one of four groups that counsel homeowners referred by Cuyahoga County's foreclosure rescue program ― says it got mortgages reworked for about 1,500 homeowners, most already in foreclosure.

"You know, there's a fine line," says Rocky Ortiz, the local director of the Catholic Campaign for Human Development, which provides part of ESOP's funding. "Mark and his people have learned to walk it."

Maybe, but in early going, some of ESOP's targets were local or relatively small. Even some of the biggest were vulnerable, or at least open to discussion.

Could ESOP take on the biggest lender in the country? It was time to find out.

___

It's called a "rank 'em and spank 'em."

Nominally, it's a meeting. But that sounds too polite, longtime ESOP volunteer Barbara Anderson says. It's a venting session, about as calm as a trading pit. At a rank 'em in January 2006, ESOP organizers declared Countrywide their villain of choice.

A month later, they "hit" Garmone's house in suburban Painesville.

"Please call Mike at home ... and tell him to do the right thing: produce his boss to a meeting with ESOP!" the group urged its followers.

ESOP didn't want just any boss. They demanded Angelo Mozilo, Countrywide's chairman and CEO.

They got a meeting with a pair of executives at the Cleveland office of the NAACP, in May 2006. After 20 minutes, ESOP negotiators walked out because Countrywide's representatives would not sign a pledge to negotiate.

Countrywide will not answer questions about its dealings with ESOP.

"We want that relationship (with ESOP) to continue to improve so together we can help more borrowers," Rick Simon, a company spokesman, said. "Going back to the past doesn't help those borrowers."

But letters Countrywide executives sent to ESOP make clear the company's sharp disagreement with the activists' criticism and its irritation with their tactics.

ESOP organizers and Countrywide executives met again in the fall of 2006. The activists also sat down with officials from the federal agencies that oversee housing, trade and banking to voice concerns about Countrywide.

But the group was having trouble convincing local officials that Countrywide was the villain they said it was, Seifert says. The campaign moved to the back burner as ESOP negotiated an agreement with another lending firm.

The standdown, though, was temporary.

ESOP organizers got Mozilo's personal phone number and instructed homeowners to call him in the middle of the night.

They flooded faxes at Countrywide offices with hundreds of copies of identical forms detailing Cleveland homeowners' problem loans.

They posted signs on the front of abandoned homes owned by the lender: "Countrywide's idea of the American Dream! Tell their executives what you think!"

In April 2007, ESOP ferried two dozen volunteers to a Countrywide office in suburban Woodmere. They walked into the tiny office, located on the town's main shopping strip, throwing plastic sharks, handing out mock foreclosure notices and demanding a meeting with Mozilo, then left when local police arrived.

"We strongly believe that confrontational tactics and deliberate misinformation are not the way to build productive relationships that help Cleveland's homeowners," a Countrywide executive wrote afterward.

In June, a pair of Countrywide executives came to ESOP's offices to meet with borrowers, promising to work with individual borrowers but again refusing to sign the memorandum.

Nine days later, ESOP showed up at a Countrywide office in the University Circle neighborhood, sharks in hand.

In late July, an ESOP regiment headed to Hudson, an outlying suburb, and tried to shove their way into the office of the lawyer representing Countrywide in its Cleveland foreclosures. The company that had been selling the group its plastic sharks heard about their tactics and cut off the supply.

Countrywide, too, was taking notice and it was not happy.

"During efforts to physically force your way into the office, one of the firm employees was actually bitten by an ESOP member," Countrywide's chief counsel, Sandor Samuels, wrote afterward. "We will not enter into relationships with organizations that desire to subject our employees, contractors and Chief Executive Officer to harassment."

Countrywide insisted it was cooperating, saying it had restructured dozens of loans ESOP had brought to its attention.

But the activists said that was not nearly enough, that it was seeking more than piecemeal solutions.

Then, in October, a letter on gold-embossed stationery arrived.

"I am hopeful, for the sake of these families, that ESOP and Countrywide will move forward and work together in a constructive manner to find workable solutions to our customers' issues," it said.

It offered a meeting with the lender's senior management. It was signed: "Sincerely, Angelo R. Mozilo."

On a Wednesday in December, Samuels led a Countrywide delegation to Cleveland. ESOP rented a trolley, seated the executives in the front row for a neighborhood tour and filled the rest with homeowners.

Two rows back sat Lisa Pass, who stood to tell the story of her father-in-law's loan and the home it had put in jeopardy. She was surprised to find the executives were much nicer than she'd imagined. And they were listening.

Nita Gardner was there, too, and she laid out the paper trail she'd assembled chronicling her efforts to hold on to the house. The papers, she says, showed she had repeatedly made the payments Countrywide demanded, but the company still rejected her offers to buy back the house.

Afterward, one of the executives asked her how far she was willing to go to keep the house.

"Do you know what obese is?" Gardner says she answered. "Well I'm the medical standard of obese ... and I'm willing to walk the double yellow line of the Shoreway buck naked to get that house back."

When the tour ended and lunch was served, ESOP President Inez Killingsworth turned to Countrywide's Samuels. Would he sign a promise to negotiate? It was the same memorandum the lender had rejected for nearly two years.

Samuels paused. Then he reached for a pen.

Rising from their seats, ESOP's army cheered.

___

A few days after New Year's, Nita Gardner's phone rang. If she had money, Countrywide was prepared to sell her her house back.

When real estate agent Jeff Swiecicki, dispatched by the lender, arrived soon after, Gardner was still skeptical. But she signed a contract and handed over a check.

"I signed the paper and I cried," she says. "I told him, you can't go back on this."

Countrywide's decision is one of 50 to 60 loan workouts it has agreed to with homeowners represented by ESOP since December, Seifert says.

In December, the activists expected to reach a comprehensive agreement with Countrywide within four months. A few weeks later, Countrywide agreed to a $4 billion deal that will see it bought and merged into Bank of America Corp. But it has continued to negotiate.

That has the activists looking ahead. The foreclosure problem isn't going away anytime soon. They're changing their name to Empowering & Strengthening Ohio's People, to reach beyond the Cleveland area.

And they're already talking about the next lender they want to go after. They've even got the home phone number for a certain CEO.

Now, Seifert says, all they need is a new supply of plastic sharks.

豪情
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Post by 豪情 » 2008-03-03 11:56

这个和当年工会的工作方法很相似啊.
当年出个KENEDY, 现在来个OBAMA.激进草根民众支持有使命感的贵族.

Knowing
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Post by Knowing » 2008-03-03 12:37

哇,他们就是把countrywide 逼死也没用啊。countrywide 本来也快接不上气儿了,改天一破产,破产法庭来foreclosure。
其实要是能达成协议慢慢还钱,对countrywide 还好呢。
喂,这组织跟obama 有什么关系,不要抹黑帅哥!
Last edited by Knowing on 2008-03-03 12:44, edited 1 time in total.
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豪情
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Post by 豪情 » 2008-03-03 12:43

他们打的是强龙难斗地头蛇的主意吧, 连破产法庭的人都攻击. 这么闹下去那里还得跌, 废弃的房子更多, 社区更恶化.
我不知道他们是否支持OBAMA, 我觉得现在大氛围下民主党人很激进. 那么多人恨小克小希, 因为他们和共和党妥协. 当初KENEDY不是黑帮工会民权运动推上去的么? OBAMA不是自认公认又一个KENEDY么?

Knowing
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Post by Knowing » 2008-03-03 12:58

那obama 天天说要两党合作,更有可能妥协。 :cat88: 竞选时说的话都得打折,不用担心。他们俩比着anti wallstreet, anti rich, 你见那个wallstreet 大亨害怕的收拾财产卷逃了。
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Jun
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Post by Jun » 2008-03-03 13:10

在美国干革命哪有市场?凡是能上去的通通都要跟corporation上床,民主党收起钱来比谁都不少。在这个国家里穷人是最没有政治发言权的了,美国的工会也是最弱的。我担心哪儿闹革命都不担心美国会闹革命。

Countrywide也好,Washington Mutual 也好,即使破了产丢了官,上头的分红也拿过了,golden parachute也早张开了,即使这些买了房子的人明天都睡到街上去,他们也不会真吃亏的。资本主义国家机器是干什么的?除了 Ralph Nader.

What real populist things did Kennedy do? Nothing I can think of.
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dropby
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Post by dropby » 2008-03-03 13:13

说到竞选时说的话都要打折, 我觉得粉搞笑是据说OBAMA的竞选办公室给加拿大大使馆打电话说对北美自由贸易协议的攻击都是竞选语言, 加拿大没啥好担心的. 然后加拿大大使馆出来辟谣, 说没这回事. 然后大使馆一个高级官员出来偷偷透露给媒体说其实真有这么回事.

加拿大那些政客难道不是玩选举玩上去的? 要真为这个担心才奇怪呢. 就象OBAMA那时候说选上了要对中国玩具如何如何, 谁会当真呀. 如果真的有给加拿大大使馆打电话这回事, 那我劝大家别选OBAMA了, 玩政治玩得太不成熟了.

Knowing
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Post by Knowing » 2008-03-03 13:14

谁说的,你要买了Countrywide Wamu 的股票你就已经在吃亏而且继续要吃亏。
我要高呼,只有obama 没收lobbist 的钱!他是清白的!
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Jun
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Post by Jun » 2008-03-03 13:17

小K 同学,买股票的人哪有金降落伞,我指的是CEO和干这行的人。他们哪有亏?亏的都是劳动人民。

谁要清白的政客?太清白了,我们这些小资产阶级会害怕他闹革命的,更加没有希望当选。Deep in our heart, we want to maintain the status quo. Why else did GWB get elected for the second term?

Bush 过去不也嚷嚷着要拿中国开刀,迫使中国多进口美国产品升值人民币什么的?结果呢?
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Knowing
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Post by Knowing » 2008-03-03 13:25

ceo 也有股票。大股东都不是劳动人民。我的意思是,大家谁也别觉的自己雪白小兔子一只,集体的贪婪吹大了肥皂泡,现在爆了人人都溅了一脸沫子,光怪大公司没用的。人家CEO 也不乐意。人家也亏了,亏的还比咱们多,本来能拿五十米林现在只能拿二十五米林。。。
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豪情
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Post by 豪情 » 2008-03-03 13:33

这些人凭啥觉得自己有资格愤怒? 现在欠钱是大爷, COUNTRYWIDE肯定还希望他们留着房子慢慢还呢. 他们白住着房子,比那些老老实实吞下贬值苦果继续还贷的幸福多了.
谁不吃亏, 就是不买股票401K债

笑嘻嘻
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Post by 笑嘻嘻 » 2008-03-03 14:46

这几天奥巴马和希拉里都在达拉斯,可惜我不在了并且没有钱捐,要不然还没有虚荣地来两张合影什么的。 :mrgreen:
上个星期,石油富翁们在休斯敦开了上万人的大会,德州有油田的地价飙升,据说油价可能会涨到4块。
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Jun
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Post by Jun » 2008-03-03 14:51

我强烈推荐这个NPR Fresh Air 的访谈节目,Joseph Stiglitz 讨论伊拉克战争对美国经济的影响,他最近出了一本书The 3 Trillion Dollar War,含有非常详尽的数据和推算。This is how empires have fallen and kept falling throughout human history。我深刻地感到自己正站在一艘慢慢下沉的船上,水已经没到脚背。

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... d=87801279
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豪情
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Post by 豪情 » 2008-03-03 14:57

上次六州同选的时候OBAMA, HILLARY, MCCAIN和HUCKABEE都在SEATTLE. 我只能读读SEATTLE TIMES. OBAMA订的市中心两万人的KEY ARENA严重超员而HILLARY在南边工人区开的会只有四千人, 好多还是妈妈带着女儿逃课去看. 有人(中年白男)说他想到居然有幸能投黑人总统一票就觉得倍自豪.
MCCAIN和HUCKABEE也粉受欢迎.
笑嘻嘻说涨到四块是哪里啥油? 现在就差不多了, 今年肯定会到四块.

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Post by 火星狗 » 2008-03-03 15:00

This is how empires have fallen and kept falling throughout human history
I share the same feeling as the author.
不过是十年前,美国看起来还好象可以再强盛个一两百年的样子。成败兴亡一刹那……

Knowing
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Post by Knowing » 2008-03-03 17:42

你们为什么那么没信心?没准帅哥上了台一切都会好的。我天真的说。上次小克上了台,局势扭转也挺快的。把打仗的钱省点下来,干什么都够了。小布什在台上八年压抑了多少新技术生产力,也许就等着政策一调整就爆发出来,跟中国文化大革命之后生产力大发展一样。关键是油价已经高到真是中西部好多人都开不起车了,有个补贴政策也许大家都回换电动车。然后global warming 也解决了。。。
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pomo
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Post by pomo » 2008-03-03 19:22

你们别吓我,美国有你们说的那么糟么?我在香港的钱已经亏得一塌糊涂了,美国股市再跌下去,我的血汗钱就剩零头了。

笑嘻嘻
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Post by 笑嘻嘻 » 2008-03-03 19:25

愿赌服输吧,节哀顺变吧。
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tiffany
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Post by tiffany » 2008-03-03 19:37

Knowing wrote:你们为什么那么没信心?没准帅哥上了台一切都会好的。我天真的说。上次小克上了台,局势扭转也挺快的。把打仗的钱省点下来,干什么都够了。小布什在台上八年压抑了多少新技术生产力,也许就等着政策一调整就爆发出来,跟中国文化大革命之后生产力大发展一样。关键是油价已经高到真是中西部好多人都开不起车了,有个补贴政策也许大家都回换电动车。然后global warming 也解决了。。。
小k简直是positive的代表啊!
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Jun
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Post by Jun » 2008-03-03 19:38

都是听多了帅哥的鼓励言论的结果嘛。即使不怎么信,能够feel good也是好的。
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Knowing
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Post by Knowing » 2008-03-03 20:59

其实我在原油七十五块钱一桶的时候就天真的这样希望过了。。。现在都一百多了。。我只好把希望寄托在帅哥身上了。。
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pomo
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Post by pomo » 2008-03-03 21:42

Knowing wrote:其实我在原油七十五块钱一桶的时候就天真的这样希望过了。。。现在都一百多了。。我只好把希望寄托在帅哥身上了。。
小K您这是积极么?您这分明是把我推往绝望滴深渊嘛!

pomo
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Post by pomo » 2008-03-03 21:51

笑嘻嘻 wrote:愿赌服输吧,节哀顺变吧。
爱心满天下,希望在人间。

笑嘻嘻
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Post by 笑嘻嘻 » 2008-03-03 23:57

今天晚上达拉斯天降大雪,从来就没见过这种天气。明早支持希拉里的老头老太太们不知道能不能出门。
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Jun
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Post by Jun » 2008-03-04 9:00

Hillary Clinton 昨晚终于上了 The Daily Show with Jon Stewart,不过是通过卫星从德州连过去的,没有亲自去纽约的播映室。我自恋地说,她一定是心灵感应了我前两天的号召。。。
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Knowing
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Post by Knowing » 2008-03-04 9:02

我当时就想,原来jun 是她竞选营阵的高层人物啊。
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火星狗
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Post by 火星狗 » 2008-03-04 9:03

咔咔,Obama的讲话算啥。下次我feel bad的时候,一定要跑来聆听Knowing的讲话,从她的大无畏的乐观主义精神中汲取力量。 :mrgreen:

Jun
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Post by Jun » 2008-03-04 9:05

切,如果她请我而不是Mark Penn 做参谋的话,早就赢得全国女性的心了。。。(yeah right)。
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火星狗
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Post by 火星狗 » 2008-03-04 9:09

更可能一部分女人爱你们爱的死脱,其他女人恨你们恨的死脱。

豪情
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Post by 豪情 » 2008-03-04 12:01

如果要POSITIVE, 那我愿意相信MCCAIN的,又减税又把仗打完降油价. 我们可以继续享受美国梦, 不是大家觉得那是天赋人权么?

Knowing
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Post by Knowing » 2008-03-04 12:19

没准儿人民就真都象他那白金头发塑胶手术脸花瓶儿老婆一样天真可爱,觉的做美国人真好什么都是天赋人权娘胎里带来的. “I always have been and will always be extremely proud of my country. I have led an extremely fortunate life. ”
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Jun
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Post by Jun » 2008-03-04 12:45

那我愿意相信MCCAIN的,又减税又把仗打完降油价.
... and appoint another uber-conservative judge to the Supreme Court so that Roe v Wade is finally overturned and nobody can have abortion.

I think we have all seen how much good 减税, especially corporate tax cut, has done in the past 8 years. Hail the wisdom! $600 tax cut for you and me, billions for the rich and powerful.

(Remember McCain was against corporate tax cut in the first place, which gives me hope that his recent scary policy positions are just lies and attempts to fool the conservative base to vote for him.)

I have some confidence in his military expertise and sense, but his knowledge of world situations and foreign policy nuiances is, to put it mildly, not encouraging. More of the same "We're number 1" American attitude. Hmm...
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森林的火焰
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Post by 森林的火焰 » 2008-03-04 17:49

我觉得没有了合法堕胎权对社会的危害比现在看上去大得多。这不仅仅是一个观念问题。就象Freakonomics里说的:一个女人决定流掉她的胎儿,她一定有很强的原因才要这么做。这些不该出生的孩子被迫生下来,在艰难的环境里长大还好,只怕在罪恶的环境下长大,将来又是社会安全的沉重负担。那个犯罪率下降是因为合法堕胎的确立的说法,起码是说服了我。如果堕胎又全国性的成为非法,那么普通人从税上省下来几百块,要在社区保安和防盗装置上花几千块,还不一定安心。
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Knowing
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Post by Knowing » 2008-03-04 21:42

这不是个对社会有没有危害的问题。一个人对自己身体的自主权都没了,这种社会哪怕窗明几净处处鸟语花香歌舞升平我也发誓不要生活在那里。接着宗教狂保守派们还不让人用避孕套,叫我们都禁欲呢。
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森林的火焰
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Post by 森林的火焰 » 2008-03-04 21:48

自由派当然都跟小K一样想了,保守派另有想法,中间的灰色地带有一类人,因为受过教育就觉得自己足够聪明,认为生育控制甚至流产“这事跟我没关系”,所以觉得为了税和别的考虑,选一个反对堕胎的人也不是不可以。事实上,不仅英明神武也有百密一疏的时候弄不好求告无门,就是真的英明神武百密不疏,其实也躲不了这种看似观念偏差的遗害。
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Jun
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Post by Jun » 2008-03-04 21:48

本来就是这个意图嘛。你们女人都不许堕胎,都不许避孕,生出来孩子,不论婚外婚内,都自己去养,国家政府才不管呢,一分钱的福利也没有,统统赶到工作市场上去干活去,至于自己和孩子的健康保险,全靠雇主施舍。Personal responsibility统帅一切。谁让你道德不够呢!谁让你控制不了自己的情欲呢!制造出那么多小娃娃养不活,一代接一代的穷人永远卡在下面别想出来。
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笑嘻嘻
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Post by 笑嘻嘻 » 2008-03-05 0:19

希拉里大概要赢俄亥俄和德州普选了。 :mrgreen: :party005:
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