看到这样的说法我倒真的觉得斗士存在的必要了。vivi你应该也是女性吧，你不觉得被性骚扰逼上绝路的同性很可怜吗？你不觉得这样的社会需要改变吗？你不觉得如果她在美国，多半不用发这种疯吗？vivi wrote:可能因为我是东城的，我没什么共鸣。她的经历和思维方式对我来说就像外星人的似的。他们那一代人中有的人的经历太negative，就算是同龄人也不一定有共鸣。有一些被叫做某某斗士的，我看多多少少有点儿bitter as hell.
这一段儿我有点儿不明白。
“。。。最后她说，“我之所以去撞天安门，也是无路可走，只有把事情弄到这里，也许国际上才会注意到我们的生活。我希望我的死可以让全世界的人看到，中国的制度是怎样的。。。”
这'中国的制度' 到底是指什么啊？政治制度？司法不公？还是领导性骚扰不成给穿小鞋啊？
这案子在伟大的美国会是什么结果呢？审个几年，在上诉几年，最后判个临时精神病？
[转帖]姚锦云和我
我觉得美国总体来说就是比中国更公平更利于良民一些，只不过移民在任何一个地方都吃亏，两相抵消以后就不一定值得了。
美国有很多人来中国工作，take advantage of the economic growth, 但是鲜有长远留下来的，一般几年后公司要localize package的时候就回美国了。中国去了美国的可有太多人留下来了。
而且有些中国的弱项，比如法制、医疗、言论自由，不碰上特殊事情不会有明显感觉。一般人哪会和公检法打交道？我们这些人，甚至父母，也还没到重病缠身的时候。不许出的书反正看不见，也不觉得缺了什么。
总之，我觉得，两国还是很有差距的，也许不再是天堂和地狱的差别，也许只是程度之别，对移民更是另外一回事。但是程度之别还是差距. Yes, it may be just a matter of degree. But a lot of things are just a matter of degree.
美国有很多人来中国工作，take advantage of the economic growth, 但是鲜有长远留下来的，一般几年后公司要localize package的时候就回美国了。中国去了美国的可有太多人留下来了。
而且有些中国的弱项，比如法制、医疗、言论自由，不碰上特殊事情不会有明显感觉。一般人哪会和公检法打交道？我们这些人，甚至父母，也还没到重病缠身的时候。不许出的书反正看不见，也不觉得缺了什么。
总之，我觉得，两国还是很有差距的，也许不再是天堂和地狱的差别，也许只是程度之别，对移民更是另外一回事。但是程度之别还是差距. Yes, it may be just a matter of degree. But a lot of things are just a matter of degree.
Sorry I can't input Chinese right now. I probably didn't make myself clear. I do feel sorry for the victims of sexual harassment, women or men. I don't think it has much to do with me being a woman. I wasn't trying to defend Chinese social and political system nor comparing it with the American one. I am simply not educated enough to do that.
I honestly don't believe it was '绝路', at least not '绝路' enough to take five innocent lives. Many people suffered a great deal of injustice during those years, but not many of them did what she did. I would have felt more sorry for her if she ended up killing her boss only.
If we strictly speak about the case only, I am curious how the case would turn out in an American court. After all there is injustice in the America, and someone probably has taken innocent lives in the name of that.
I honestly don't believe it was '绝路', at least not '绝路' enough to take five innocent lives. Many people suffered a great deal of injustice during those years, but not many of them did what she did. I would have felt more sorry for her if she ended up killing her boss only.
If we strictly speak about the case only, I am curious how the case would turn out in an American court. After all there is injustice in the America, and someone probably has taken innocent lives in the name of that.
Last edited by vivi on 2008-12-19 9:11, edited 1 time in total.
又没头脑又不高兴
As a person who has learned everything about the U.S. legal system from Law and Order, and strictly speaking on the facts of the case ---
The outcome of such a case could vary vastly depending on 1) in which state the crime is committed, 2) who is the defense lawyer, 3) luck.
Such a case in US would NOT carry the same kind of political subtext as it did in China. However, other kinds of political subtext may be resent.
The outcome of such a case could vary vastly depending on 1) in which state the crime is committed, 2) who is the defense lawyer, 3) luck.
Such a case in US would NOT carry the same kind of political subtext as it did in China. However, other kinds of political subtext may be resent.
此喵已死，有事烧纸
太同意了。我一直不好意思讲，我对她跟军大院儿的孩子混不满就是觉得她混完了的结果在潜意识里有点觉得自己是高于法律/社会秩序之外的，因为那群孩子都那样，问题是那群孩子有的靠山她未必有。Knowing wrote:不管是性骚扰还是政治气氛压抑导致的愤怒，如果理性的分析一下，不可能是用开车跑到天安门压死五个无辜路人来抗议吧。她甚至没杀＂特孙子＂的领导 －－ 当然这人也罪不至死。姚当时显然是处于愤怒的失去理智和自控的状态。事后说的控诉中国的制度之类空洞的话没必要那么认真对待。那代人就那样，因为他们觉得个人是不重要的，所以干什么事都得扯上大道理。it is a way for her to justify her own out of control anger.
云浆未饮结成冰
我觉得这篇文章重点不是在质疑姚杀了人后死刑判重了，而是在于她本来可以不走这样一条绝路。I'm not trying to justify her crime. 用无辜的人的生命来撒气是不对的，毋庸置疑。她有她的问题，必须承担的责任，当然。
但是这篇文章指出背后的社会也要担责任，同样的性骚扰问题如果在美国不太会激起这样的悲剧，中国政府和社会值得反省和努力改进职业环境。我很同意。
我上学的时候在一家大国有银行实习过，性骚扰的词语无处不在，年轻女性根本只能厚着脸皮当那是常态。我刚去第三天就被小头目严重骚扰，我暗示他再这样我要告上去，他笑嘻嘻的回应了一大堆话，完全不在乎。后来的职业生涯里，更有机会看到许多外籍经理们把中国工作当成放纵机会，文化不甚谴责男性，法制又不管束他们，何乐而不为。
但是这篇文章指出背后的社会也要担责任，同样的性骚扰问题如果在美国不太会激起这样的悲剧，中国政府和社会值得反省和努力改进职业环境。我很同意。
我上学的时候在一家大国有银行实习过，性骚扰的词语无处不在，年轻女性根本只能厚着脸皮当那是常态。我刚去第三天就被小头目严重骚扰，我暗示他再这样我要告上去，他笑嘻嘻的回应了一大堆话，完全不在乎。后来的职业生涯里，更有机会看到许多外籍经理们把中国工作当成放纵机会，文化不甚谴责男性，法制又不管束他们，何乐而不为。